Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,659
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Aug 23, 2019 8:49:13 GMT
As to tomiseksj : it's not that Scott missed them. They don't show them as being watermarked. If I am reading things right, which I didn't! I just looked again and misread between Scott & Michel. Peter, I think that I may understand your problem with the Scott Catalogue, as it is an area that has tripped me up in the past. Scott uses a system to indicate watermarks at the beginning of a listing or new set, that if no watermark is mentioned, that means that you need to keep looking back to find the next previous listing where a watermark was indicated, and that is the one that applies. For me, it would be a lot more user friendly if they would just indicate the watermark or lack thereof at the start of each listing, but they do not. Sometimes, you have to go back several listings (or even pages in the catalogue) to figure out which watermark applies to a particular listing or set. As I said, I have been tripped up by this editorial protocol in the Scott Catalogues many times in the past, so it is still a sore point with me, as it has led me to misidentify or be unable to identify stamps on more than one occasion.
|
|
brightonpete
Departed
Rest in Peace
On a hike at Goodrich-Loomis
Posts: 5,110
|
Post by brightonpete on Aug 23, 2019 12:12:23 GMT
See, I am too new to this and am getting stamps, papers & watermarks mixed up. I see the error quatrefoil watermark stamp now. One that isn't attainable by most collectors.
Ah, and with no watermark listed in Scott, I see what you are saying. If none listed, carry on with what was before it. That is somewhat confusing.
I'll go back to my corner now & maybe I'll be able to figure these out sometime.
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,659
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Aug 23, 2019 12:23:07 GMT
No worries, Peter ( brightonpete). With me, I normally crawl under a rock, so going to a corner doesn't sound so bad. Please don't let any of it get you down. It is stamps, after all, which is our hobby and is supposed to be a positive aspect in our lives. In some cases, this sort of thing is exactly the reason I decide to stop at a certain point. There are always further depths to be explored, it would seem! On the Scott Catalogue thing, I have never liked the system that they use for noting the watermark. It is fine as long as it keeps changing from listing to listing, so that they are effectively forced to indicate what it is, but when the same watermark or lack thereof carries on for several listings, it is not always easy to find the last listing where the watermark was mentioned, and sometimes I overshoot and miss the last one and find the one before that, which only leads to more problems. Anyway, best of luck with the sorting, and don't be shy about posting and asking questions if you are unsure. Someone around here will be able to help, I feel certain.
|
|
tobben63
Member
Stamp eat sleep repeat
Posts: 1,866
What I collect: I collect to much, world wide!
|
Post by tobben63 on Aug 23, 2019 15:44:16 GMT
Great job Chris ( Beryllium Guy ) I have a (lot) of these for exchange. I'm not an expert but I have the Michel special witch is packed with information, on German witch I can't read, just stumble trough
|
|
tobben63
Member
Stamp eat sleep repeat
Posts: 1,866
What I collect: I collect to much, world wide!
|
Post by tobben63 on Dec 28, 2019 11:43:01 GMT
I'm currently working on these beautiful stamps. Lots of things to look after and I have just touched the edge of it yet. Here is what I 'd find today. It is the 30 pfennige of 1920. Type I (on the left has a displacement of the numbers and the 'DEUTSCHESREICH'. Also the cross on the crown almost imperceptible, but that is hard to see on my stamp because of the postmark ink. Value is €40 for type II and €2 for type II. I only had one type II between my 44 of this stamp. It also have a perfin witch I think must be FE. Some of the holes are not punched out. If someone know an German perfin site I would like to know.
Michel DR 144I I think the numbers below is for the ordinary stamp. Scott DE 123 Yvert et Tellier DR 122 Stanley Gibbons DR 143a
|
|
brightonpete
Departed
Rest in Peace
On a hike at Goodrich-Loomis
Posts: 5,110
|
Post by brightonpete on Dec 28, 2019 15:42:17 GMT
|
|
tobben63
Member
Stamp eat sleep repeat
Posts: 1,866
What I collect: I collect to much, world wide!
|
Post by tobben63 on Dec 30, 2019 8:11:48 GMT
Germania Peace print - War print I have tried to translate from German to English. */1 Peace printing: Clear, clean print, neatly delineated lines, Silky gloss Colours; Satin, shiny Paper; Watermark clearly recognizable; Rubber coating white, matt glossy, fine breakage. */2 war print: Blurred, unclear print image, drawing interrupted more often, dull (with the first roller prints very shiny) colors; dull, rough paper; Watermark unclear, not always recognizable; Rubber coating glossy to high gloss. */3 Representative presentations of the German Empire (large Germania) */4 Peace printing Clear, clean printing; White paper; watermark clearly recognizable: rubber coating white, matt glossy, with clear rubber jumps */5 war print: Blurred, "resolved" printed image; porous-looking, with under yellowish paper; Watermark indistinct; Rubber coating white, very shiny or yellowish and dull with brownish "scars" (so-called bark rubber) */6 Between conditions that cannot be clearly assigned to the pressure of peace, usually pay at war pressure. */7 In order to be able to use pressure scrap at least partially, parts of the arch were brought to the counter in the large 5x5, beginning with the war pressure. These quarter arches can only be recognized by the "small arches". Previously proven values are marked accordingly. Please send new reports to the editors or the Arge Germania brands.
|
|
tobben63
Member
Stamp eat sleep repeat
Posts: 1,866
What I collect: I collect to much, world wide!
|
Post by tobben63 on Dec 30, 2019 8:42:55 GMT
On these issues a good indicator is the postmark date. I would say that 70% of the (Germania- small and large) stamps I have gone trough the last week has readable dates. Very few if none at all have a "late" date of the stamps I have look trough. This give a good indicator for stamps without readable date. I have seen trough 1100-1200 "small Germania" and 160-170 "lagre Germania" I have roughly sorted the Peace-War issues, but will now go back and try to fine tune them. By doing this, going trough the Germania issue from 1899 to 1922 I have learned a lot. And I'm glad I took my time to do this and the way I did it. I concentrated to first find those inscription REICHPOST, the '1900' issue. Then for the rest I selected those without watermark (inscription DEUTSCHES REICH), that would be the '1902' issue. The '1905' (peace) issue I went for the postmark and the watermark. This give a roughly sorting. There can be warprint with 'good' watermark and there can be peace print with late postmark. The rest of the small Germania's has either no 'stripes' in the background of the woman (Germania) ore there are different colour's / face values than the Peace-War print.
|
|
gmot
Member
Posts: 205
What I collect: Canada & French Morocco
|
Post by gmot on Dec 30, 2019 13:09:12 GMT
This will be so helpful when I go through my peace/wartime Germania - thank you!
|
|
darkormex
Member
Swinging through Switzerland and getting tied up in Thailand
Posts: 2,145
What I collect: The World...just printing and mounting as I go...call me crazy!
|
Post by darkormex on Mar 29, 2021 2:43:45 GMT
I have been doing what this thread says...Identifying Germania Definitives, having gotten totally sidetracked from my Germany-Berlin project. I am going through what I have and looking at shades, varieties noted in Michel and sorting onto stock pages. I have also been spending a lot of time looking at postmarks and these two really caught my eye. Initially, the one with the clear Stargard city name which I looked up and realized was in Poland. And then I looked at the other and realized it is Trebnitz, also in Poland. Both were part of the Kingdom of Prussia starting in the 18th century and did not become part of Poland again until the end of WWII. Both postmarks are also the KGS (circle grid stamp) 25.50mm / form: circular bridge stamp with grid arch above and below text. In the Stargard postmark you can also see the provincial name of Pommerania. I can't read the provincial name on the Trebnitz postmark I also thinking the two stamps are distinct color varieties of the 3 pf stamp, one being olive brown and the other sienna. Other members' opinions on this are welcome.
|
|
salentin
Member
collecting Germany,where I live and about 20 more countries,half of them in Asia east of the Indus
Posts: 5,635
|
Post by salentin on Mar 29, 2021 6:57:25 GMT
My best guess is Trebnitz (today Trzebnica) in Lower-Silesia near Breslau. There is/were a number places named Trebnitz in Germany. I think on the cancel the name of the province is abbreviated: Schles.(ien).
I would not dare to have an opinion about the colour-tones. However I found siena in an old Michel 1993/94 only. My latest Michel 2005,lists two subnumbers:
54a dark-ochre-brown to blakish-brown-ochre and
54b dark-orange-brown I guess the latter was previously listed as siena
|
|
darkormex
Member
Swinging through Switzerland and getting tied up in Thailand
Posts: 2,145
What I collect: The World...just printing and mounting as I go...call me crazy!
|
Post by darkormex on Mar 29, 2021 11:44:26 GMT
salentin , thank you for your help. I see now that the provincial name is (Schles.) as you noted. Here is another example from Stampsx.com: GERMAN EMPIRE 1872-1915, TREBNITZ * (SCHLES.) *. This being the case then this looks like this is confirmed as Trebnitz (Trzebnica) in Poland.
|
|
mikeclevenger
Member
Posts: 887
What I collect: Ohio Tax Stamps, Ohio & Georgia Revenues, US Revenues, US FDC's, & Germany Classics
|
Post by mikeclevenger on Mar 30, 2021 9:15:53 GMT
I also thinking the two stamps are distinct color varieties of the 3 pf stamp, one being olive brown and the other sienna. Other members' opinions on this are welcome. Good luck with the colors. I have a few hundred of these, and they all look different colors to me. LOL. I still don't have a Germany color chart though, and I really should buy one. I have an entire album that I bought where the guy had put every color variation of all the stamps in an album, so I have a pretty good reference for a lot for these stamps, and I still can't tell the colors easily.
have a great day. Mike.
|
|
darkormex
Member
Swinging through Switzerland and getting tied up in Thailand
Posts: 2,145
What I collect: The World...just printing and mounting as I go...call me crazy!
|
Post by darkormex on Mar 30, 2021 12:50:13 GMT
mikeclevenger, yes, I agree. I find color determination onerous and, to me anyway, somewhat subjective. Figuring out varying shades of carmine or brown or whatever, is daunting to me and I never quite trust that I have really determined the correct color.
|
|
mikeclevenger
Member
Posts: 887
What I collect: Ohio Tax Stamps, Ohio & Georgia Revenues, US Revenues, US FDC's, & Germany Classics
|
Post by mikeclevenger on Apr 1, 2021 9:08:34 GMT
I do have one advantage for determining the color of all these. The album I bought at auction, that someone had gotten all the different colors on each page, almost every single stamp has been Expertised, and stamped on the back. I didn't know this when I bought the album. When I got the album and started looking at the stamps, I found the expertising marks on the back of them. I would be willing to bet that at least 90% of the entire album has been expertised and there are hundreds of stamps in the album. I couldn't even begin to imagine what that cost originally. I just got lucky one that one. Here are some examples. In these pictures the stamps all look the same colors almost, but the actual pages in your hands, you can see the color differences:
Have a great day. Mike.
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,659
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Apr 1, 2021 9:31:58 GMT
Thanks for your post, Mike ( mikeclevenger). It seems incredible to find that 90% of a collection would have been expertized. Not that I necessarily doubt that that is possible, but I wonder if I could ask a question and a favor? Question: By any chance have you been able to determine the identity of the expertizer? There is an excellent online database on this website: www.filatelia.fi/experts/namesa.htmlThey have images for some, but not all, expertizing marks, which can be very helpful in identification. Favor: Would you be willing to post an image or two of the expertizing marks? Are they all from the same expertizer, or do you have examples from more than one? I am very interested in expertizing marks, as I came across some forged ones a while back, which I posted about here: thestampforum.boards.net/thread/7407/expertizing-marks-genuine-forgeryIn fact, if you are willing to post some images of the expertizing marks, it might be better to post them in that other thread rather than clutter up this one about Germania stamps. It's no rush, Mike, but if you have time to do it, I would be very curious to see what you have there. Many thanks!
|
|
|
Post by PostmasterGS on Apr 1, 2021 9:47:09 GMT
With early German stamps from about MiNr. 31 to MiNr. 50, there are so many minor color varieties that you almost have to get expertization if you want to accurately fill all the holes. If you're willing to go with mostly used, it's not very expensive as the used cat value for many is low, so the fees are low. Mint is a whole different level of expense, though.
I have the Michel color guide and Jäschke-Lantelme's Pfennige, Pfennig, und Krone/Adler which contains side-by-side scans of all the color shades for MiNr. 31-52, and I still gave up in favor of getting mostly certified copies.
|
|
salentin
Member
collecting Germany,where I live and about 20 more countries,half of them in Asia east of the Indus
Posts: 5,635
|
Post by salentin on Apr 1, 2021 14:28:22 GMT
I would be also curious about the expert marks ! The BPP expertising rules should not allow to indicate the clour-shades,except with an attest. Comparing the tones noted in that collection with the newer Michel,it seem that they must be of an "ancient" catalogue listing,as the names of the colours have changed.But maybe they are not based on Michel,but another catalogue,what does not exist any more.
|
|
mikeclevenger
Member
Posts: 887
What I collect: Ohio Tax Stamps, Ohio & Georgia Revenues, US Revenues, US FDC's, & Germany Classics
|
Post by mikeclevenger on Apr 2, 2021 17:58:13 GMT
Ok, I have looked through my album this morning, for about 3 hours. I didn't realize until today that some people actually have small letter stamps, to mark the back of their stamps with. I thought only the people who expertised stamps, used those little letter stamps. So, with that discovery, I now have figured out that the album has about 50% or a little more, of the stamps have actually been expertised. There are at least 7 different persons expertising stamps, that I have seen so far. The best thing about these stamps in this album being expertised, is that I didn't even know they were done, until I received the album. I paid a little over $200 for this album from a European stamp auction a few years back now. Whether they are expertised or not, doesn't really matter to me, but from the looks of it, they do have the correct colors. Unfortunately, my scanner doesn't scan in true color, so everything almost looks the same in my scanned pictures. I have tried to take some pictures with my phone, to try to show the real colors of the stamps. In person, you can see the differences in the colors of the stamps, but I can't see hardly any difference in the scans unfortunately. I have shown the original pages with a scan and a photo from my phone. I have also shown the stamps scanned out of the pages and the backs of the stamps that show the expertising marks. The album goes from Germany #1 - #104. So, here are some pictures: #88-#91
#94 - #97
#102 - #104
Here is a side view of the album, just to show how many pages there are, and a picture of my helper, lol:
Have a great day. Mike.
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,659
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Apr 2, 2021 21:53:02 GMT
Ok, I have looked through my album this morning, for about 3 hours. I didn't realize until today that some people actually have small letter stamps, to mark the back of their stamps with. I thought only the people who expertised stamps, used those little letter stamps. So, with that discovery, I now have figured out that the album has about 50% or a little more, of the stamps have actually been expertised. There are at least 7 different persons expertising stamps, that I have seen so far. Many thanks for your post, Mike. This is exactly what I was wondering about. Like you, for a long time, I had the impression that names stamped on the backs of stamps meant that they had been expertized, but then I learned that there are not only marks from expertizers, but also from owners and dealers. It is late here now, but I will take a closer look at the images you posted this weekend. Some of the marks you are showing appear similar to ones that I have in my accumulation, too. Anyway, thanks for obliging my request!
|
|
darkormex
Member
Swinging through Switzerland and getting tied up in Thailand
Posts: 2,145
What I collect: The World...just printing and mounting as I go...call me crazy!
|
Post by darkormex on Apr 4, 2021 3:42:18 GMT
I would not dare to have an opinion about the colour-tones. However I found siena in an old Michel 1993/94 only. salentin, here is another one. In this case I am pretty sure the stamp on the left is the dark bluish green, Mi70a and the one on the right is green Mi70b. The dark bluish green stamp is a pick-up for me as I did not have a copy previously and I have mounted it on my page below. One thing you had noted was that you were using an older version of the Michel catalogue and so am I. In fact, the album pages that I have are based on the 1989 version of the Michel Germany Specialized. I have seen newer versions that have a lot more varieties including color varieties but I am not going to go deeper than the level that this album goes.
|
|
darkormex
Member
Swinging through Switzerland and getting tied up in Thailand
Posts: 2,145
What I collect: The World...just printing and mounting as I go...call me crazy!
|
Post by darkormex on Apr 4, 2021 3:46:17 GMT
On the above page, the 40pf has a railway postmark. I had posted this particular stamp on the other forum but was unable to identify the what cities were on the postmark, only the train number which is Zug 4. I looked at it closely tonight and I was able to make out that it is the Hamburg-Coln(Rhein) train. The dates on it are simply to difficult to see.
|
|
|
Post by PostmasterGS on Apr 4, 2021 3:48:03 GMT
darkormex , I think you're correct on the colors. MiNr. 70 a on the left, 70 b on the right.
|
|
darkormex
Member
Swinging through Switzerland and getting tied up in Thailand
Posts: 2,145
What I collect: The World...just printing and mounting as I go...call me crazy!
|
Post by darkormex on Apr 4, 2021 3:55:19 GMT
PostmasterGS, thank you for the confirmation. This is a pretty common stamp and I have a number of them and, lined up side by side, there is definitely a gradation in colors but the this dark bluish green is pretty distinctive and stood out from all the rest. I watermarked this, of course, to make sure it wasn't Mi85...double and triple-checked but that diamond pattern on the 1905 stamps usually shows up pretty clearly.
|
|
darkormex
Member
Swinging through Switzerland and getting tied up in Thailand
Posts: 2,145
What I collect: The World...just printing and mounting as I go...call me crazy!
|
Post by darkormex on Apr 5, 2021 0:33:43 GMT
This is Mi87, 1905, watermarked with lozenges (diamonds). There are a variety of different colors noted for both the peace and war printings of this stamp. In the 1989 Michel it notes 3 under Peace prints: ultramarine, ultramarine blue; dark blue; and violet blue. For the war prints there are 4: gray ultramarine to ultramarine; violet ultramarine; pale blue violet and violet blue. To my mind, only one of these is a war print and that is the second stamp from the right. I say this because the parallel horizontal lines that fill in the vignette behind Germania a broken and blotchy and the hair and crown have less detail than in the other stamps. But my primary purpose is the color. When I look at the stamps below I see, from left to right, that the 2nd, 3rd, 5th and 7th stamps all trend more toward violet while the 1st, 4th, 6th and 8th stamps all trend toward ultramarine. In the case of stamps 4, 6 and possibly 8, I see possibly dark blue. Any thoughts?
|
|
|
Post by PostmasterGS on Apr 5, 2021 4:50:20 GMT
darkormex , The colors can be especially tough on used copies due to dirt, discoloration, etc. FWIW, here's a color comparison of unused copies. Click to enlarge.
|
|
darkormex
Member
Swinging through Switzerland and getting tied up in Thailand
Posts: 2,145
What I collect: The World...just printing and mounting as I go...call me crazy!
|
Post by darkormex on Apr 6, 2021 0:18:46 GMT
PostmasterGS, thank you for your help again. I do, actually, use your website too which is a huge rabbit hole for me. I am going to have to put the Germania stamps away for a while because I have become totally sidetracked from my current project of sorting and mounting West Berlin issues.
|
|
darkormex
Member
Swinging through Switzerland and getting tied up in Thailand
Posts: 2,145
What I collect: The World...just printing and mounting as I go...call me crazy!
|
Post by darkormex on Jun 20, 2022 2:53:29 GMT
I focused on Germany, Switzerland, Argentina and Mexico this past weekend at the bourse. Starting tonight I have been working again on Germania issues starting with the 1900 issue with the Reichpost inscription. This will fill a spot in my album as I still did not have the 30pf but I also think it has a really nice SON Osnabruck cancel, dated September 30, 1900, if I am not mistaken.
|
|
rednaxela
Member
Posts: 177
What I collect: Germany in all its facets since 1871 (especially German Reich used including postal statinoneries, used), USSR, Austria, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, Denmark, France. I design all album pages for my collection myself and partly make them available to the general public for use.
|
Post by rednaxela on Sept 23, 2023 10:42:24 GMT
The Germania definitive stamps of the German Empire (Empire and Weimar Republic) have, as is well known (and as has been repeatedly explained in TSF), a large number of variants: Inscription Reichspost/Deutsches Reich, without and with watermark, hatched and clear background, peace printing and war printing, not to mention the numerous color variants. I would like to point out one item that is often overlooked. These are Germania definitives issued in 1920/1921 (Michel # 144 to 149, Scott #123 to 128): New colors (compared to earlier issues) were defined for some denominations. These denominations were printed in two colors, i.e. with two plates, in previous issues. Now these denominations were issued in one color. For this purpose, the old (i.e. two) plates were used to some extent. But new plates (one plate printing) were also used. The new plates were centered - as far as the frame and center part were concerned - unlike the printing with the old two plates, which were never completely centered. (Only the 60 Pfennig value [Michel # 147, Scott # 126] was printed exclusively with one plate, and therefore is always centered). The distinction between the two varieties can be seen especially in the crown of the Germania. For this the following illustrations: Two-plate printing: One-plate printing: The Scott catalog (at least the 2009 edition I have) does not mention these printing variants.
|
|