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Post by robayr on Apr 28, 2024 19:29:54 GMT
My first question as promised in my introduction. What are the members views on why forgeries are created?
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khj
Member 
Posts: 1,470 
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Post by khj on Apr 28, 2024 20:05:16 GMT
I would say the great majority were intended to defraud collectors.
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,290
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Apr 28, 2024 20:46:33 GMT
Recent forgeries here in UK are criminal productions to defraud the Mail. Usually they find an outlet on internet or through less scrupulous small shop retailers, tempting purchasers with offers below the current postal rates.
It is easy to find genuine current barcode ( and of course fake ones also) at around 75% of face , as hundreds of thousands have been released as a result of the Royal Mail Swap out programme , exchanging obsolete Machins from collections and stock for equal value in the new Matrix code .
As many of the NVI Machins would have been bought years ago , the increase in face value means they can be sold cheap and still make a profit for the seller. Forgeries of the new stamps will turn a big profit for crooks if they can be off loaded into the system
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khj
Member
Posts: 1,470
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Post by khj on Apr 28, 2024 21:19:46 GMT
I'm part of the circle that tends to define: Counterfeits = defraud postal authorities. Forgeries = defraud collectors.
Then again, who's to say. As long as we figure out what terminology we are using, we're good.
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,290
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Apr 28, 2024 23:58:36 GMT
I'm part of the circle that tends to define: Counterfeits = defraud postal authorities. Forgeries = defraud collectors. Then again, who's to say. As long as we figure out what terminology we are using, we're good. Can’t say I have ever come across that distinction or been bothered by it. But then there are “Replicas” and “Facsimiles” , some of which are obvious and don’t pretend to be anything else , some are close enough to cross the line and have fraudulent intent. so a “fake” is a “fake” what ever its purpose. Recently Royal Mail has been intercepting fraudulent Matrix Code stamps on letters , marking the cover as having a “Forged stamp “ (sic) and fining the recipient £5! Maybe they don’t expect the public to know the word “counterfeit!” Or just find it easier to call them forgeries. back in the 1880s a fraud at the London Stock Exchange saw “fake” 1/- stamps being used on telegraph forms handled by a Postal worker. Designed to defraud the postal authorities it has forever been described as the “Stock Exchange Forgery” |
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Post by robayr on Apr 29, 2024 10:10:04 GMT
Many thanks for those replies. Would I be right in assuming that engraved stamps are harder to fake than others.
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banknoteguy
Member
Posts: 291
What I collect: 19th Century US, High denomination US (> $1), 19th century covers US, Indian Feudatory States and most recently I acquired a BigBlue [with about 5,000 stamps] and pristine pages.
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Post by banknoteguy on Apr 30, 2024 17:24:53 GMT
I think you would be right in assuming that few forgeries are actually engraved. But engraved stamps have certainly been forged mostly by processes other than engraving such as photo-lithography. While I am pretty sure engraved forgeries are at best uncommon, I am pretty sure such things exist. Maybe someone reading this can point to an example. The Wikipedia entry on this is fairly thorough: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philatelic_fakes_and_forgeries |
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banknoteguy
Member
Posts: 291
What I collect: 19th Century US, High denomination US (> $1), 19th century covers US, Indian Feudatory States and most recently I acquired a BigBlue [with about 5,000 stamps] and pristine pages.
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Post by banknoteguy on May 4, 2024 13:01:10 GMT
Nobody quickly posted any engraved forgeries, so I poked around. It took me awhile to find an example so I think engraved forgeries are pretty unusual. Here is a link to an pretty extensive set of pages on Hawaiian forgeries: www.hawaiianstamps.com/bgforgery.htmlThe engraved forgery is the 1853 13c Dark red of King Kamehameha III. In the image below the two stamps on the left are engraved forgeries or the real Scott 6:  |
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rod222
Member
Posts: 10,014
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on May 4, 2024 14:48:23 GMT
Nobody quickly posted any engraved forgeries, so I poked around. It took me awhile to find an example so I think engraved forgeries are pretty unusual. I am confused, Are "The London Gang" and "The Boston Gang" one of the same? "The London Gang"  |
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banknoteguy
Member
Posts: 291
What I collect: 19th Century US, High denomination US (> $1), 19th century covers US, Indian Feudatory States and most recently I acquired a BigBlue [with about 5,000 stamps] and pristine pages.
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Post by banknoteguy on May 4, 2024 19:07:15 GMT
Rod,
Well before my time but I don't think so.
The London Gang as described by L.N. Williams: "Ferrary's market extended all over the world, and he made periodical visits to London and other capitals to add to his treasures. He bought stamps from several of the leading dealers, but was not averse to conducting business with some of the lesser lights; in fact his charitable nature often led him to patronize small firms in the hope that he would be doing them a good turn. In this way he sometimes came into contact with disreputable characters, and among them were the notorious Benjamin and Sarpy who, together with Jeffryes, were known in the eighteen-nineties as 'The London Gang'. Ferrary bought stamps at the poky little shop in Cullum Street on a number of occasions, and there can be no doubt that not all his purchases were of genuine stamps, because Benjamin and Sarpy probably regarded him as a 'mug'. Indeed, there was a tendency in the philatelic world to decry Ferrary's knowledge of stamps because of the number of spurious specimens found in his collection."
And as to the Boston Gang, I think you posted this in 2011:
Taylor, Samuel Allan
(1838-1913). A notorious producer of bogus stamps,
known as 'the Master Grafter' and leader of the
'Boston Gang'.
He was at the height of his fraudulent career in the
period 1863-70, and for one of his productions, a
fictitious U.S. local, used his own portrait in the
design!
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Post by robayr on May 5, 2024 19:03:27 GMT
Many thanks for that additional info. As i have said I don't collect stamps for the value but for appearance but forgeries to me are the same as scams. Maybe they were done many years ago but some people are still selling them on.
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