rod222
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Jan 19, 2014 9:48:28 GMT
Admin may we have a sub board for Nicaragua please? Nicholas Frederick Seebeck.
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Jerry B
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Marietta, Georgia USA
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Post by Jerry B on Jan 19, 2014 14:10:28 GMT
G'Day Rodney
Are the stamps: 1. Thin Paper / printer's waste? 2. Is there a watermark (Liberty Cap)? 3. If a watermark, does the top of the cap point: up, down, left or right? I am curious because until now I am not sure if I have seen imperforates in Ecuador. Thanks for your answers.
Jerry B
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Post by jkjblue on Jan 19, 2014 15:20:40 GMT
What the heck are these Rod? The colors are all wrong for the Nicaragua 1891 Seebeck "Goddess of Plenty" regular issue. Telegraph? Revenue? The regular issue never had a 30 centavos denomination. And Scott has no mention of watermarked issues for the '91. But if it did...... This is what one would look for....
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cjd
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Post by cjd on Jan 19, 2014 15:51:40 GMT
I think 30c was a postal stationery denomination.
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rod222
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Posts: 9,854
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Jan 19, 2014 17:48:57 GMT
Re: Seebecks Thanks all, I was told they were Seebecks when I originally found them, and took my research from there on. I am a novice in this area, so I am in your hands, I'll demount them and test for wmks. There are differing weights of paper, but nothing too rigid. I had assumed they were reprints on printers waste, stationery had not been considered.
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Jerry B
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Marietta, Georgia USA
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Post by Jerry B on Jan 19, 2014 18:06:47 GMT
Hi Rodney
The watermarks are pretty 'thick'. Just turn over the stamp and look into the light. You should not have to unmount them.
When I first saw them I immediately thought of printer's waste. Now that I think about it they could be salesmen's samples to show the government officials what the stamps may look like if they order. I wonder if there is a set for Nicaragua, Salvador, Honduras, Dominican Republic and Ecuador.
There once was a group that formed that was studying Seebeck issues.
Jerry B
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rod222
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Posts: 9,854
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Jan 19, 2014 18:13:15 GMT
G'day Jerry, shall do, it's 2 in the morning here, and I'm off to bed.
These Seebecks, if that is what they are, are a curious lot, I have seen them at auctions in the past, and no one showed any interest, like they were Cinderellas.
I bid on a lot of them last week, and was outbid, I have a feeling they were knocked down in the $30 region, that had me agog.
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Post by jkjblue on Jan 19, 2014 20:00:38 GMT
Seebecks are a mess. The '91 issue is not reported watermarked, so not sure you have to worry about that. Could they be stationary issues?
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Jerry B
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Marietta, Georgia USA
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Post by Jerry B on Jan 20, 2014 7:30:45 GMT
Hi Seebecks are a mess. The '91 issue is not reported watermarked, so not sure you have to worry about that. Could they be stationary issues? That is the understatement of the year. I don't think they were stationary items as some values do not make sense for that, at least for Ecuador. I am still thinking they might be samples, especially since there are a few of them. I have at least 2 stockcards full of Ecuador Seebecks. I will see if I can borrow the book on Seebecks form APRL or just have the Ecuador section copied. Jerry B
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rod222
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Posts: 9,854
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Jan 20, 2014 11:09:52 GMT
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rod222
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Posts: 9,854
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Jan 20, 2014 11:12:53 GMT
Hussey's Express Post. Printed by Nicholas F Seebeck.
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I.L.S.
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I am in Clearfield, Pa. I love US Classic covers!
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Post by I.L.S. on Jan 20, 2014 11:52:07 GMT
Wow neat stuff and quite interesting to! P.S. I really really like want that Hussy's Express Rod. If you ever wish to part with it that is...
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tomiseksj
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Woodbridge, Virginia, USA
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What I collect: Worldwide stamps/covers, Cinderellas, Ohio Prepaid Sales Tax Receipts, U.S. WWII Ration ephemera
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Post by tomiseksj on Jan 20, 2014 12:33:49 GMT
Could they be stationary issues? From the Linns' article that Rod referred us to, I think that their being cuts from postal stationery is most likely.
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rod222
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Posts: 9,854
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Jan 20, 2014 13:05:11 GMT
P.S. I really really like want that Hussy's Express Rod. If you ever wish to part with it that is...
Apologies Jeff, I was remiss in not stating the stamp is not mine. IIRC posted by a member of SCF, when I noticed the Seebeck inscription.
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rod222
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Posts: 9,854
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Jan 20, 2014 13:13:16 GMT
Re : From the Linns' article that Rod referred us to, I think that their being cuts from postal stationery is most likely. Steve, I don't share your opinion, I have seen so many of these things, I doubt paper was used in stationery production, then people cut them out, that being a waste. Some ne'er do wells had the printing plates, and I reckon, they just run off sheets of these things and then cut out the squares for collectors. Another case for the prosecution, they are all in mint cond, none I have seen have been used. My opinion is just guesswork and feeling, only, so in a way I would hope you are correct Let's hope Jerry can shed some more light. and I will keep an eye out on the web for more of these things, see what the going rate is.
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Post by jkjblue on Jan 20, 2014 14:19:38 GMT
If Seebeck produced 41 envelopes, 26 wrappers and 40 postal cards for Nicaragua, that is a lot of suspects.
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Post by jkjblue on Jan 20, 2014 14:28:06 GMT
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cjd
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Post by cjd on Jan 20, 2014 14:45:33 GMT
Not to beat a dead horse, but it is tough to explain the values without going to postal stationery. As far as I know, postal stationery was available in stationery-specific values of 4c and 30c (i.e., those are values that were not duplicated in regular postage stamps).
If we have to explain away 30c examples, it seems like the easiest explanation.
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rod222
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Posts: 9,854
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Jan 20, 2014 15:10:48 GMT
Jim, that is a cracking blog. I look forward to reading it in full tomorrow morning, over my crumpets and stewed plums. This is a real can or worms, I saw the Seebeck "Hero or Villain" book on the net this arvo for 7 GBP, but wasn't tempted to purchase, I don't really have a sophisticated Nicaragua collection, and will rely on the expertise of members here.
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Jerry B
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Marietta, Georgia USA
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Post by Jerry B on Jan 20, 2014 15:37:47 GMT
HI Let's hope Jerry can shed some more light. and I will keep an eye out on the web for more of these things, see what the going rate is. Thanks for the vote of confidence but I am tapped out of ideas. Rodney, I believe you said that they were pretty much the same thickness so I tend to assume that they are not from postal stationery. They seem too thin for Postal Cards and too thick for Letter Stationery. I do like the assumption that they just may be someone printing sheets of these things for collectors. Also, Rodney, in your "travels" through the web see if you locate any that are not from Nicaragua. Other countries may have the same designs, especially officials, so watch for the country name. There was so much going on with the Seebeck issues who knows. I used to know someone who was fairly expert in these but sadly he passed away years ago. He once told me: "If it looked clean and "pretty" then it was probably a Seebeck but if it was ratty looking it is probably real". A lot of times one will see these issues with no gum. The same person above told me that it was because the gum was removed in order to measure the paper thickness (one way to tell real from Seebeck). How true this is I cannot verify. Over the years I have accumulated a pile of Ecuador Seebecks. Jerry B
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tomiseksj
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Woodbridge, Virginia, USA
Posts: 6,262
What I collect: Worldwide stamps/covers, Cinderellas, Ohio Prepaid Sales Tax Receipts, U.S. WWII Ration ephemera
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Post by tomiseksj on Jan 20, 2014 20:56:53 GMT
Re : From the Linns' article that Rod referred us to, I think that their being cuts from postal stationery is most likely. Steve, I don't share your opinion, I have seen so many of these things, I doubt paper was used in stationery production, then people cut them out, that being a waste... Here's an alternate theory, based upon the information published in the July 17, 1909 edition of Gibbons Stamp Weekly (p. 54): Seebeck printed and provided imperforate versions of the 1891 issue, as he had done for that of 1890, and those stamps were similarly rejected by the Postmaster and returned to Seebeck as not having fulfilled the contract. Not one to miss an opportunity, Seebeck allowed these "rejects" to enter the marketplace.
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rod222
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Posts: 9,854
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Jan 20, 2014 21:05:57 GMT
Wow! Mr Tomisek, you pulled the rabbit from the hat ! Part of my enjoyment of philately, is ferreting around for information on the why's and wherefores. to have the assistance of knowledgeable people out there, with differing skills is a real bonus. Your skill at unearthing info is becoming legendary. Well done Steve!
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rod222
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Posts: 9,854
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Jan 20, 2014 21:08:47 GMT
So...on my album page, I have "Nicaragua : Seebecks reprints"
What do members suggest would be a more accurate heading?
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cjd
Member
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Post by cjd on Jan 20, 2014 22:39:17 GMT
Is it too late to continue to hold out for another explanation? Love Steve's excerpt, but I don't think it fits these.
1. Wrong paper, no? Doesn't look like my Nicaraguas, and I read the Gibbons excerpt to say that he supplied some imperfs and part perfs, which were rejected. Seems that they should be on the same paper as regular stamps (admittedly, I'm surmising this). The next page of the 1909 issue lists the examples for the 1891 series, and...
2. Still no 30c mentioned.
3. Rod's first and third 30c have large margins that look to me like they would have to extend into adjacent stamps. Centering is often haphazard on these, and when you see an especially off-center example, the neighboring stamp is not too far away.
I'm willing to be outvoted, but I think it is premature for Rod to retitle his page.
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Post by jkjblue on Jan 20, 2014 22:43:50 GMT
The rejected regular issue Imperforate stamps- at least the 1890 issue which is shown on the Gibbons page- are the same colors and denominations as the perforated issue. (Yours is the 1891 design "Goddess of Plenty".) Scott has a note that Imperfs and part perfs of all of the Scott 20-120 Seebeck issues are known - includes the 1891 Scott 30-39 issue. Rod- this still doesn't explain the colors you have for your stamps or that 30c denomination.
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rod222
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Posts: 9,854
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Jan 20, 2014 22:54:46 GMT
"Is it too late to continue to hold out for another explanation? " Never. The truth should always be the object. but for me, time to take a deep breath, and re focus. "The never ending story" comes to mind
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Post by jkjblue on Jan 20, 2014 23:03:51 GMT
Here are the regular issue 1891 "Goddess of Plenty" stamps- their colors and denominations....
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cjd
Member
Posts: 1,107
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Post by cjd on Jan 20, 2014 23:16:16 GMT
Say what you want about Seebeck, that's a pretty page...
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Post by jkjblue on Jan 21, 2014 0:27:04 GMT
These specimens are being sold as "UPU proofs" by a seller from the Netherlands on ebay. They appear to match your 1c,2c, and 4c.
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tomiseksj
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Woodbridge, Virginia, USA
Posts: 6,262
What I collect: Worldwide stamps/covers, Cinderellas, Ohio Prepaid Sales Tax Receipts, U.S. WWII Ration ephemera
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Post by tomiseksj on Jan 21, 2014 0:30:25 GMT
Is it too late to continue to hold out for another explanation? Love Steve's excerpt, but I don't think it fits these. By now it should be clear that I'm no expert in this regard...just trying to help explain what seems to have eluded the group thus far. This ended ebay listing shows what the seller describes as stamped envelope and wrapper cuts from the 1891 issue. You'll see that the seller includes the 30c among his grouping of envelope cuts. I've attached the applicable portion of the auction image.
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