rod222
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Post by rod222 on May 20, 2014 3:25:21 GMT
Inspired by The Stamp Forum's "Jen B" enquiry here..... thestampforum.boards.net/thread/46/bicycles-cycling?page=2I thought it pertinent to investigate and study perforation punctures ( stamp separation designs ) worldwide, (not including Perfins) Syncopated Perforation A reply by our "The Stamp Forum" member Blair in 2009 A Netherlands stamp with Syncopated perfs (and a perfin) Perforations (as a design) addressed in Stanley Gibbons Monthly Other separation methods
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on May 20, 2014 3:47:59 GMT
One of the first ever Perforated Stamps. Possibly the first perforated stamp to Warrington England. The "Archer" perforation, est CV GBP 1,200
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on May 20, 2014 3:54:13 GMT
A Screen grab, in my laborious trip into perfing all my early Romania, it takes hours, but made easier with "EZPerf"
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Post by Perfs14 on May 20, 2014 18:47:47 GMT
It would be interesting to know the most popular or best Perfs size...I would suspect that Perf14 would be it!
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Jen B
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Post by Jen B on May 21, 2014 1:29:17 GMT
Nice compendium of perforation info! From your scan of the Netherlands stamp I can see now how syncopated perfs would add strength to coil stamps.
That ezPerf looks helpful, but I can see the process might be tedious if you have a lot of stamps you want to check. Perhaps I should give it a try. I'm never confident that I have the right measurement when using a perf gauge.
Did you find the program accurate?
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on May 21, 2014 2:03:55 GMT
Nice compendium of perforation info! From your scan of the Netherlands stamp I can see now how syncopated perfs would add strength to coil stamps. That ezPerf looks helpful, but I can see the process might be tedious if you have a lot of stamps you want to check. Perhaps I should give it a try. I'm never confident that I have the right measurement when using a perf gauge. Did you find the program accurate? That's a toughie Jen B, here's the thing, the developer gave me a free program to "trial" the software, and he offered the other stamp forum 10% discount on purchase. I wasn't fully convinced of the program, a lot of my stamps are grungy and misperfed and blind perfs etc. At the price, (around $45?) it was the best thing going round, the others were anything up to $500. I never got around to purchasing the program after the trial, and going by the youtube video vast improvements have been made. At the price it is a bit of a no brainer, when comparing to the Gibbons plastic perf guage at $15 itself. It is a tad tedious, but for checking mint stamps for varieties and using the carousel option after scanning a page of stamps, it looks effortless. There are other options on the market, including an electronic scanner, I would like something like that because early Romania comes in the thousands, and it takes away the necessity to scan every stamp. I keep putting off a decision hoping to find a second hand machine at auction.
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rogo
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Post by rogo on May 21, 2014 2:19:11 GMT
It would be interesting to know the most popular or best Perfs size...I would suspect that Perf14 would be it! cue the rimshot...... thank you, good night, try the veal........
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rogo
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Post by rogo on May 21, 2014 2:23:55 GMT
There are other options on the market, including an electronic scanner, I would like something like that because early Romania comes in the thousands, and it takes away the necessity to scan every stamp. I keep putting off a decision hoping to find a second hand machine at auction. The price of the electronic perf machines are north of a Signascope......I would hope they work as advertised......
I have yet to see a reasonably priced used machine........
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Jen B
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Post by Jen B on May 21, 2014 2:37:36 GMT
The price of the electronic perf machines are north of a Signascope......I would hope they work as advertised......
I have yet to see a reasonably priced used machine........
Holy smokes, you aren't kidding. Just took a look at those. There is another old fashioned variety that has raised metal posts. That looks like it might work better than the flat plastic thing that I have. Anyone like the one with the raised posts? It's called the Lindner Phila-Combi-Box.
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on May 21, 2014 2:49:16 GMT
Holy smokes, you aren't kidding. Just took a look at those. There is another old fashioned variety that has raised metal posts. That looks like it might work better than the flat plastic thing that I have. Anyone like the one with the raised posts? It's called the Lindner Phila-Combi-Box. Have looked at the metal posts, never used one, I would envisage problems with weird perf sizes, after all, we generally look at perfs to isolate the varieties that are rare? I must be an optimist, I am still hoping to snag an electronic device. The signascopes get energetic bidding at the auctions I attend. Perf oration items www.ihobb.com/c/PERFGAUGES.html
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Philatarium
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Post by Philatarium on May 21, 2014 2:57:34 GMT
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on May 21, 2014 3:00:25 GMT
Russia. Perforations (punctures) as a design characteristic only. Specialists may able to confirm or otherwise regarding these from Uruguay "sewing machine" perforations? or pin hole perfs? US Electric Eye machine, and Hyphen Hole perforations. Are they stamps as designs on that lass' dress?
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on May 21, 2014 3:32:18 GMT
Measuring Perforations on cover, or for the budget collector a method can be employed by the following equation. (Not good for US citizens who still use inches Simply measure the distance accurately, of the length of the DESIGN of the stamp in millimeters, count how many teeth lie within that design measurement. Repeat for each side.
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Philatarium
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Post by Philatarium on May 21, 2014 4:31:29 GMT
Rod: Thanks for showing the math! One question: is there any reason that the same equation wouldn't work with the actual width (or height) of the stamp, as opposed to the design of the stamp? I would think that determining the design dimensions might sometimes involve a judgment call, but the actual width of the stamp would be more definite. For example (and sorry, I just have the composite image of all 4 stamps), how do you really determine the design dimensions of the 3- or 10-sen stamp? Not trying to challenge at all. Just trying to figure this out. -- Dave
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Post by Perfs14 on May 21, 2014 4:32:08 GMT
I use one of these, good for old eyes: [broken image links removed]but you have to scan your stamp at 600dpi and use the odontometer as a gif image, then I just paste the stamp image in Paint and overlay the gauge image but leave it free to move and position:
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on May 21, 2014 10:39:24 GMT
Rod: Thanks for showing the math! One question: is there any reason that the same equation wouldn't work with the actual width (or height) of the stamp, as opposed to the design of the stamp? I would think that determining the design dimensions might sometimes involve a judgment call, but the actual width of the stamp would be more definite. For example (and sorry, I just have the composite image of all 4 stamps), how do you really determine the design dimensions of the 3- or 10-sen stamp? Not trying to challenge at all. Just trying to figure this out. -- Dave That's cool Dave, questions are good, we all learn. The design width depth etc, has really no significance at all, other than giving the user, a specific (and accurate) line to measure, (for example imagine how useless it would be measuring from perf tip to perf tip, that would involve some huge discrepencies) Now then the 3 or 10 sen stamp, measure whatever you like, the smaller width or the larger width, it has no significance UNTIL you count the teeth in the smaller or larger line If you do math on both measurements the Perforation result will remain the same As a rule the larger the design the more accurate the result will be, albeit the more probability of mis - counting the teeth, so it's a Catch 22. Find a stamp with a weird perf count, then do the math as an example, it's quite accurate. Quite often catalogues give design dimensions, but I would not rely on that, I employ a steel rule for all my measurements. A plastic or wooden rule, can be a bit dodgy. Now I am off to try Perfs 14 bit of Magic...............
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on May 21, 2014 10:46:04 GMT
I use one of these, good for old eyes: This looks good! (esp as I scan all my stamps at 600dpi) Can you explain more deeply how to do this please? I have Win XP and paint. Can you measure the width of the design please, of this stamp, your guage reads 12.35 let's see what the math returns............
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on May 21, 2014 11:07:00 GMT
Poland Butterfly Odontometer shows 11.25 Math : 20 teeth reside in the width of design 35.5mm so 20 x 20 =400 divided by 35.5 = 11.27 Hehehehehehehe
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AirmailEd
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Post by AirmailEd on May 21, 2014 20:55:37 GMT
Do you need an engineering degree to use that thing? I have a perforation gauge that I got from Linn's many years ago. It has served me well, although I have more trouble seeing the gradations than I did in years past. Somehow, they're making perforations harder to see. Not sure how that's happening, since everything I have is at least 74 years old. The gauge includes a round thing for measuring postmarks. I'll never wear that out, since I avoid cancellations like the plague. I thought my gauge was advanced. Your gauge makes mine look like something distributed to Cub Scouts.
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Post by Perfs14 on May 22, 2014 3:06:24 GMT
Poland Butterfly Odontometer shows 11.25 Math : 20 teeth reside in the width of design 35.5mm so 20 x 20 =400 divided by 35.5 = 11.27 Hehehehehehehe Looks like you can use it better than me! I have Xp and use Paint as well... BTW - in your calculation method whay don't you just count the number of teeth in a fixed length e.g 2cm or for smaller stamps 1 cm ? Probably not accurate enough?
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on May 22, 2014 5:12:50 GMT
BTW - in your calculation method whay don't you just count the number of teeth in a fixed length e.g 2cm or for smaller stamps 1 cm ? Probably not accurate enough? Your perf odontometer is a ripper Perfs ! Measuring the design (or part thereof) gives one more accuracy in real time, in my opinion. I have tried the 2cm on the steel rule, and it was awkward and prone to error. I like to take a portion of the stamp design border that has a straight edge, and count the teeth between two accurate points of the line . One has to be aware of parallax error, one needs only count "whole teeth" between the two points for accuracy. With a straight line border, you can tell if a tooth is splitting the line (therefore not included in the count)
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Post by Perfs14 on May 22, 2014 18:24:38 GMT
BTW - in your calculation method whay don't you just count the number of teeth in a fixed length e.g 2cm or for smaller stamps 1 cm ? Probably not accurate enough? Your perf odontometer is a ripper Perfs ! TYVM Rod, but I cannot take the credit. The odontometer was developed by 'Woody' (aka another name on another Aussie forum) on the GOMC forum All the accolade goes to him who worked hard at making it transparent, no mean feat!
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Jerry B
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Post by Jerry B on May 22, 2014 19:49:30 GMT
Hi Rodney How about Sewing Machine Perforations? In Colombia most stamps issued during the 1000 Days War were perforated this way. You will find them on stamps from 1899 to about 1903. The stamps also exist Perf 12 and Imperf. You can some on this page from Antonius-Ra's collection: mitch.seymourfamily.com/mward/collection/samerica/colombia/colombia05.jpgActual sewing machines were used for perforating stamps. I have an item where the perforations are different half-way through one side. It is assumed the people perforating could not find the right sized needle to replace a broken one so they used whatever they had. Jerry B
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on May 22, 2014 20:07:33 GMT
Hi Rodney How about Sewing Machine Perforations? In Colombia most stamps issued during the 1000 Days War were perforated this way. You will find them on stamps from 1899 to about 1903. The stamps also exist Perf 12 and Imperf. Hi Jerry, yes I knew that, some helpful guy called "Jerry" enlightened me back in 2008 20080314 Here are some of the Yemen stamps with sewing machine perfs. They were done by a philatelic son of HM the Imam Yahya. Probably Prince Seif al Islam Ishmail. a single - Scott #2 a strip of three Blair ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20080313 Hi all, Colombia, South America, also used sewing machine perforation during the 1000 days war (1900 - 1903). Jerry B ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Barwani SG23 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sewing machine perforating was also done on several denominations of the 1872 US (blue) revenue stamps. However Scott catalogue will not list the imperforate stamps that were used for sewing machine perforations. No pairs of the imperforate stamps have been reported in collectors hands. Art Rod wrote: > Thanks, but what about the sewing machine stamps, ?? Anyone ......... Sewing machines were used for experimental perforating of Yemen's first issue 1925-1929. Blair
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on May 22, 2014 20:13:01 GMT
Also Note: Denmark circa 1920, employed a sewing machine to cancel stamps.
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Post by jimbooregon on Jul 12, 2015 23:22:31 GMT
great information one and all
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Sept 20, 2015 0:03:54 GMT
Here's a perforation variety that has me a bit confused. A perforated gutter between two stamps isn't so rare - there are many examples of this worldwide, and even a few in the U.S. Some of those are due to errors and are very expensive, some are intentional (see the Farley's Follies). Apart from those intentional examples, I can't think of any on US stamps and I was surprised to come across this Bureau precancel. The dashes in the selvage are for use by the electric eye perforator and I've always seen examples like the stamp to the left, trimmed fairly short. Perforated on the edge? I don't think I've seen that before. Is this intentional? Was the pane shearing off-centre so that there's a short / non-existant selvage at the bottom of the pane? Something else? We need to ask our selvage collector - khj, do you know anything about my perforated selvage? Ryan
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Jerry B
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Post by Jerry B on Sept 20, 2015 4:47:44 GMT
Hi
Jen
I use the combi-box a lot. I catalog stamps for my friend's store and using the box for measuring perfs on hundreds of stamps makes the process go fast. I have been using it for a number of years now and like the box a lot. There are a few "ratty" stamps where I have to use a normal gauge.
My friend got some in the store when they first came out. Without my discount the price was around $12 USD. A lot more expensive today but personally I think it might be a worthwhile purchase.
My friend had one of the electronic perf gauges in the store and neither of us liked it. It might be still sitting on the shelf. For a lot of stamps it was too unwieldy to use and slow. In some cases not too accurate.
A hint in using the box. Do not use it with the stamp face up as it may be hard to tell if there is a match. Use it with the back of the stamp up and it will be much easier to see a match.
Perfs14
It seems to me perf 11-1/2 or 12 might give perf 14 a run for it's money.
Jerry B
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Sept 20, 2015 12:28:35 GMT
Here's a perforation variety that has me a bit confused. A perforated gutter between two stamps isn't so rare - there are many examples of this worldwide, and even a few in the U.S. Some of those are due to errors and are very expensive, some are intentional (see the Farley's Follies). Apart from those intentional examples, I can't think of any on US stamps and I was surprised to come across this Bureau precancel. The dashes in the selvage are for use by the electric eye perforator and I've always seen examples like the stamp to the left, trimmed fairly short. Perforated on the edge? I don't think I've seen that before. Is this intentional? Was the pane shearing off-centre so that there's a short / non-existant selvage at the bottom of the pane? Something else? We need to ask our selvage collector - khj, do you know anything about my perforated selvage? Ryan The EFO show perfs across the selvedge, Any help? CTRL F type in "electric eye" www.efocc.org/Resources/Hotchner_EFOs/PrintFormat.php
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khj
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Post by khj on Sept 29, 2015 22:50:36 GMT
Here's a perforation variety that has me a bit confused. A perforated gutter between two stamps isn't so rare - there are many examples of this worldwide, and even a few in the U.S. Some of those are due to errors and are very expensive, some are intentional (see the Farley's Follies). Apart from those intentional examples, I can't think of any on US stamps and I was surprised to come across this Bureau precancel. The dashes in the selvage are for use by the electric eye perforator and I've always seen examples like the stamp to the left, trimmed fairly short. Perforated on the edge? I don't think I've seen that before. Is this intentional? Was the pane shearing off-centre so that there's a short / non-existant selvage at the bottom of the pane? Something else? We need to ask our selvage collector - khj, do you know anything about my perforated selvage? Ryan Sorry for the belated reply. I haven't visited TSF that much recently. The perforated gutter in the upper right stamp is known as a "gutter snipe". A very nice example, Ryan! The format in which they are collected will depend on the type of gutter. Usually, they are a production anomaly rather than intentional, and would therefore fall under the category of EFO. Regarding the guide markings in the selvage, on US stamps of THAT ERA, the press sheet consisted of 4 stamp panes. The selvage markings which are parallel to the edge (as in your example) come from the gutter between the panes. This is why in general you don't see these on the same side as the plate number (which appear on the outer edges of the press sheet). When the press sheet was cut into the four panes, the cut should ideally split those gutter markings. When the cutting process is off significantly, it can cut into the stamp instead of the gutter -- that is how gutter snipes appear. Marginal markings that are perpendicular/angled to the selvage edge appear at the edges of the press sheet and not between the panes. So on US stamps of that era, you will in general NOT find gutter with perpendicular markings. However, if those markings exist, they should be on the same side as the plate number. Most gutter snipe collectors like to collect the entire gutter intact. I'm not that picky. As long as it shows the entire marginal marking, I'll keep it regardless of whether it has perforations on the opposite side of the selvage. If there are no marginal markings, then they want part or all of the adjacent stamp to show that it is not just a selvage with fake perfs added.
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