renden
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Post by renden on Jul 4, 2019 16:55:10 GMT
I pulled this and this from actual stamps (25 c noir sur laque rouge Type II) notice how the "N" in INV on the image below appears to be "I-K-V" ? Time for more French lessons to see if I find mention of this Stan stainlessb - here is my Sage Sc 93/Maury 91,25c noir sur rouge (black on red) and I did look at your close-ups......it is a "N" - René
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blaamand
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Post by blaamand on Jul 4, 2019 17:17:57 GMT
stainlessb Here's the illustration from Maury, 2016 I agree. Such anomalies are not uncommon on the old French stamps, even on more recent stamps. I have studied the Semeuse in quite detail for types and sub-types, and found quite a lot of such oddities, not mentioned in Maury at least. Fortunately the catalogs don't list them all, or Maury would have been several binders
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Jul 4, 2019 20:18:07 GMT
so, after re-designing what will now be two pages instead of one (since I now know how many color varieties (according to Spink|Maury) I "think" I have my layout set ... well see... My earlier desgn I indicated both Scott and Yvert #'s, but to keep this less cluttered, I have gone in favor of Yvert which is what Spink|Maury seem to somewhat follow (if this is a wrong assumption, please let me know!!) if anyone sees a glaring (or even not so glaring) error, please let me know
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jul 4, 2019 21:26:02 GMT
Nice looking page, Stan ( stainlessb ). Not sure if it warrants a redo for you, but the artwork was done by Jules Auguste Sage rather than his lesser known cousin Jason. I think that Jason may have done some work in the film industry later on. Very easy to get those two confused, as I have often done myself!
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Jul 4, 2019 22:08:43 GMT
Beryllium Guy Thanks! an easy Fix at this point and thanks for pointing it out ( so much better now than after I've applied mounts and started loading... I started with the first "group" of the series, even though I have very few of them
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blaamand
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Post by blaamand on Jul 5, 2019 14:17:37 GMT
stainlessb - Excellent page, I really like your custom made layout. Well done! Sure your Type I's will look great on that page - please do not be shy to share the results after
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Jul 5, 2019 14:28:28 GMT
Thanks @blamaand may be a while on the Type I as I do not have many, but I wanted to start with the first of the series so the rest follow the general design.
and, should anyone want the PDF's, just let me know
Happy Friday (a long weekend for me!)
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Jul 6, 2019 20:31:52 GMT
Peace & Commerce series- Type II, Type IIS and Type IIB the background of the stamp has horizontal lines and this seems to be the distinction for IIA and IIB The first line between the S and T in POSTED, on eof the under the top (horizontal of the T extending to the left to the S The detail in Spink|Maury is not very large and I'm honestly not sure what I am looking at If unbroken it is a Type IIA and if broken, then it's a Type IIB (correct??... or I have it backwards ) AND... if no IIA or IIB is called out (2 centimes, 10 centimes, etc.,) then is it a Type II, but what differentiates it Is there a term for the horizontal background lines? This being a Type IIA (?) or just a Type II (??)
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tomiseksj
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Post by tomiseksj on Jul 6, 2019 21:07:02 GMT
I don't have the reference that you've cited (Spin / Maury) but it appears to me that the first line between the S and T is broken.
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Jul 6, 2019 21:36:47 GMT
Thanks Steve! Spink|Maury has arrows that point at different lines than the one you have pointed out- I see now in their reference that IIB has more 'shawdowing" at the end of the "E"s tines (f that makes sense, but the arrows between the S and T looks about the same to me Here is the detail for the 25 centimes A to B (L to R)... here I am assuming as the examples are not specifically labeled (but thi seems to coincide with what's in MauryCeres & Dallay - which does identify as either IIA or IIB The 5 c is much easier as there's a noticeable ink"blob" for IA. As there no specific example to the 15 c and then here's 3 different, side by side which all appear about the same, but IF I'm understanding this the 5 c would be IIA and the 15c would be IIB (?)
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blaamand
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Post by blaamand on Jul 7, 2019 7:20:21 GMT
Hi Stanley, stainlessbI was also struggling with these. The different types looks easy enough to identify when looking at the illustrations etc, but in real life I had a feeling there was no clear cut, as if there were some stamps that appeared to be midway between the different characteristics. Anyway I got these illustrations below from Yvert classiques for the 15c blue, #90. I found these more useful to clearly see the differences than the images in Maury. Yvert does only give Type IIB and IID for 15c blue (not II A or II C). To complicate things, Type II D comes in 4 'etats'. Wishing you best of luck on these! Once we are focusing on the 15c blue - there is also the Maury 90b - Chiffre '15' maigre - not explained any more or illustrated in my Maury (2016). I made this presentation below with info 'google-translated' from a french forum, don't know how accurate it is! That's my ranting done, hope some of it is useful for someone!
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blaamand
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Post by blaamand on Jul 7, 2019 7:24:29 GMT
By the way, always remember to check the reverse on these classics! Maury is listing that only a couple of these come with company marks on the reverse, however the list in Maury is not extensive. I found the company mark 'Langer' on a Sage 30c, which is not mentioned in Maury, so there's obviously more to these than included in the catalogs. I am only aware of the 3 different company marks listed in Maury as below, but there might be more? If anyone happen to have an extensive reference, like a complete list of different company marks and rarity on the different stamps, I would love to see!! I am quite curious about my 'unlisted' specimen
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tobben63
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Post by tobben63 on Jul 7, 2019 11:30:20 GMT
Now I look forward to having a look at mine old French stamps. Will have to come back to this tread. 😁
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hrdoktorx
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Post by hrdoktorx on Jul 7, 2019 13:35:44 GMT
By popular demand, here are the pictures from the two types from my Yvert&Tellier 1938 WW catalog: Type I has the signature lined up so that the N of "J. A. SAGE INV." is under the B of REPUBLIQUE. Type II has the N under the U of REPUBLIQUE. The text explains that the reason for the two types existing is that the lower left corner of the master broke off and needed to be redone, and the signature was then placed somewhat differently.
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Jul 7, 2019 14:33:31 GMT
blaamand Thank you for posting that- I must have the wrong Yvert as mine does not go into quite that much detail (Yvert et Teller) Catalogue de Timbres-Poste, 1991, but I found more detail later in Spink|Maury under the 1877-90 series if I interpret this correctly Type IIB, IID, and IIE (!!!?) are relevant to issues later in the series. I am just touching the 'tip" of the proverbial iceberg on this series, but I have not seen any company marks, only the quadrile, but I will keep looking!
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renden
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Post by renden on Jul 7, 2019 15:01:28 GMT
I find Maury does the "trick" in 95% of my France stamps (classics) but some multiple typings need a lot of time and once or twice, I had to convince myself - this can be "hard work" René
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Jul 7, 2019 15:05:36 GMT
I find Maury does the "trick" in 95% of my France stamps (classics) but some multiple typings need a lot of time and once or twice, I had to convince myself - this can be "hard work" René I had very tired eyes after yesterdays efforts!
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renden
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Post by renden on Jul 7, 2019 17:15:25 GMT
I have finished my custom pages for the Semeuse camée (Sower with no ground under feet) but awaiting Sc 181 and 183 to complete the series and start mounting...55 stamps in all from 1c to 2fr......some I had to do 3 passes with Maury to get the proper T (or t) and variations of color, paper etc. René ..........breaktime...........beer time later !!
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blaamand
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Post by blaamand on Jul 7, 2019 17:51:03 GMT
Stanley - hmm, that's quite confusing It seems your Yvert is giving contradicting info about which sub-types were used for #90 than the scans I shared. My scans are also from Yvert, however from "Le Specialise Timbres de France 1849-1900" (not mine unfortunately). I don't know how to explain that - maybe the general Yvert France catalog has a more simplified approach?
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blaamand
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Post by blaamand on Jul 7, 2019 17:57:24 GMT
I agree. The only thing I am not pleased with about my Maury is that many of the images for each variety/type etc is so small I cannot work them out even with magnifier. In particular for the Semeuse, (as already shared recently in another thread) I had to refer to specialized 'Semeuse' sites online for decent images.
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Jul 7, 2019 18:31:13 GMT
@ Blaamand yes, that different than the Yvert I have- I have found three on Amazon, all around $44 (used)0 I don't know if I need another specialty catalogue, but I suppose it would be a good reference I agree that the detail photos in Maury are too small. I have scanned at high resolution so I can expand on one of my monitors (it helps) But a question for both you and renden the mot recent detail scan the second row ow circled details which seems to be focused on the top border lines above her(Peace?) head... they all look the same...what am I missing? Also, do all Yvert #101 have the quadrille "grill" on the back? Marcophile.org shows this, but I see no mention in the catalogues I have 30 more minutes of stamping before Ihave to go can tomatos (which is good!)
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blaamand
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Post by blaamand on Jul 7, 2019 21:18:03 GMT
Yes, 101 has quadrille paper, scan below from Maury
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blaamand
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Post by blaamand on Jul 7, 2019 21:45:38 GMT
stainlessb - Honestly I cannot tell from those images. My Maury doesn't include these sub-types at all (Maybe just as well?? ), so the only reference I have for the sub-types are the scans I shared earlier in this thread. As already mentioned, I struggled to tell them apart, so I simply carried on without diving too much into them. Unfortunately these catalogs often doesn't explain the differences in words, solely relying on the user to see it from the images. And the images are not the best! What I do in such circumstances is to ask the gods at Google, they seem to find an answer to everything So I just now found a specialist web site describing the 15c blue in detail, that's the best I can do. That site says the same as the Yvert Speciale: "On the N ° 90, one knows 2, IIB and IID, for the IID there are five states." Use google translate on this SITEExample from the site:
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renden
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Post by renden on Jul 7, 2019 23:00:30 GMT
This thread is getting more confusing as we go with lots of repetition and various Catalogs René
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Jul 7, 2019 23:17:33 GMT
blaamand I have bookmarked the link! Thank you- it does help explain, although it is still a mystery what is happening at the top border? Before the tomato canning episode ( 3 gallons total : 7 s qt sauce , 5 qt juice) I had looked at a number of examples and have noticed a couple of things which probably do not mean anything, but I did notice that i saw it in multiple examples, so in the next few days i will assemble them together ( for the sake of academia!) Nice to know about # 1010 and all quadrille, which makes it easier, but now I wonder how many forgeries(les fraudes) exist and I though Penny red plate numbers were challenging! ( although that's another area where I'm only waist deep so far!) Thanks for the detective work!
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Jul 7, 2019 23:18:34 GMT
renden I balme the catalogue publishers! ( and yes it is a bit confusing)
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Jul 8, 2019 0:06:15 GMT
blaamand would you say it it safe to equate the 5 "states" with Types IIA, IIB, IIC, IID, and IIE?
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blaamand
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Post by blaamand on Jul 8, 2019 6:16:37 GMT
I think I would have sticked with the what the 'Speciales' say, type IIB and IID I would say it is very confusing!
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renden
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Post by renden on Jul 8, 2019 12:56:25 GMT
blaamand Jon and stainlessb Stan Since the three of us are exchanging "differences" on classic France stamps and are referring to various Catalogs, I propose that we use: 1)Scott # Which series we are talking about: Emission Céres; Emission Présidence; Empire Céres non dentelé (imperf); Empire dentelé (perf); Empire Lauré (Napoleon type III Lauré); République franc; Emission de Bordeaux; Emission Céres Rép Franc (perf); Emission SAG 1876-78, 1877-90; 1892-1900; The Mouchon series of 1900-1939; Merson series; Semeuse lignée (Sower); Semeuse of 1903-; Semeuse camée (with or without land under feet) etc etc 2)Equivalent Number in Maury catalog or other (I use Maury - others use other specialized cat) Since this can be quite confusing, english terminology being different from french - not certain we can he helpful (100%) in a thread on Classic French stamps, and with scans !!! ........my rambling for today - René
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blaamand
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Post by blaamand on Jul 8, 2019 14:10:37 GMT
Rene - as far as I know Yvert and Maury are using the same major numbers, so that part of your query is solving itself With regards to giving the Scott numbers for French stamps....well I don't necessarily agree that Scott is the golden standard for European stamps? If Scott numbers should be included, I would say, to be fair, so should Michel and Stanley Gibbons...?
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