beezy07
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wondering if I should focus on collecting in just one certain area for now....hmmmm.. 🤔
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What I collect: Anything that catches my eye!
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Post by beezy07 on Sept 25, 2018 8:42:18 GMT
I just won this stamp from an auction on Ebay . Any thoughts and how do I tell if a stamp has a "grill" or not?? Any and all input is appreciated . Also I tried to search for a thread on this but came up empty. I might have used the wrong description to search I'm sorry if I did but I'm still learning how to maneuver around this forum and find posts and threads.  |
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Beryllium Guy
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Posts: 5,653
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Sept 25, 2018 22:23:47 GMT
I just won this stamp from an auction on Ebay . Any thoughts and how do I tell if a stamp has a "grill" or not?? Any and all input is appreciated . Also I tried to search for a thread on this but came up empty. I might have used the wrong description to search I'm sorry if I did but I'm still learning how to maneuver around this forum and find posts and threads. Thanks for your post, Beezy! Hopefully, a member with more expertise than I have in this area will respond to you. With my limited knowledge and experience with grills on classic US stamps, all I can say is that I had a much harder time seeing the grills than I do seeing watermarks! I was only ever able to identify a couple of early "grilled" stamps in my US collection, and the way that I did it was to look at the stamp from the back side and angle it to a light source to try to create the right kind of shadowing to make the grill evident. I did not find that a particularly easy or reliable process, but it did work on a couple of occasions. And if the stamp has any hinge remnants on the back, you may wish to soak it to remove anything like that, which will give you your best chance of finding a grill if it is there to be found. Not much to go on, I know, but it's about the best I can offer. Good luck with it! Hopefully, someone else will chime in. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2018 23:55:11 GMT
I just won this stamp from an auction on Ebay . Any thoughts and how do I tell if a stamp has a "grill" or not?? Any and all input is appreciated . Also I tried to search for a thread on this but came up empty. I might have used the wrong description to search I'm sorry if I did but I'm still learning how to maneuver around this forum and find posts and threads. The first thing would be the price, if the seller knew their product, the 3 grill types are scarce and command a fair price. If you can see a grill by chance, it becomes fairly easy to identify and you can eliminate some choices with secret marks depending on which printer was used Post a reply if you can see a grill.
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beezy07
**Member**
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wondering if I should focus on collecting in just one certain area for now....hmmmm.. 🤔
Posts: 43
What I collect: Anything that catches my eye!
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Post by beezy07 on Sept 26, 2018 8:18:50 GMT
I just won this stamp from an auction on Ebay . Any thoughts and how do I tell if a stamp has a "grill" or not?? Any and all input is appreciated . Also I tried to search for a thread on this but came up empty. I might have used the wrong description to search I'm sorry if I did but I'm still learning how to maneuver around this forum and find posts and threads. Thanks for your post, Beezy! Hopefully, a member with more expertise than I have in this area will respond to you. With my limited knowledge and experience with grills on classic US stamps, all I can say is that I had a much harder time seeing the grills than I do seeing watermarks! I was only ever able to identify a couple of early "grilled" stamps in my US collection, and the way that I did it was to look at the stamp from the back side and angle it to a light source to try to create the right kind of shadowing to make the grill evident. I did not find that a particularly easy or reliable process, but it did work on a couple of occasions. And if the stamp has any hinge remnants on the back, you may wish to soak it to remove anything like that, which will give you your best chance of finding a grill if it is there to be found. Not much to go on, I know, but it's about the best I can offer. Good luck with it! Hopefully, someone else will chime in. Thanks bro! I appreciate your "2 cents" Lol. Really any info whether its what i was already thinking or not helps more than you think. Especially if its confirmation to what I was already thinking. I'm trying to learn as much as possible because I am very excited about stamp collecting Probably Because Its Not something I'd Ever thought I'd Enjoy. Kind Of Took me By Surprise Lol So Reminisce Of A Hinge Should Be Soaked To Come Off?? |
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beezy07
**Member**
Inactive
wondering if I should focus on collecting in just one certain area for now....hmmmm.. 🤔
Posts: 43
What I collect: Anything that catches my eye!
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Post by beezy07 on Sept 26, 2018 8:26:38 GMT
I just won this stamp from an auction on Ebay . Any thoughts and how do I tell if a stamp has a "grill" or not?? Any and all input is appreciated . Also I tried to search for a thread on this but came up empty. I might have used the wrong description to search I'm sorry if I did but I'm still learning how to maneuver around this forum and find posts and threads. The first thing would be the price, if the seller knew their product, the 3 grill types are scarce and command a fair price. If you can see a grill by chance, it becomes fairly easy to identify and you can eliminate some choices with secret marks depending on which printer was used Post a reply if you can see a grill.
Nl1947 Thank you for your response. It was advertised as "Scott #160" and the used value was i believe $85. The book i have can be a little confusing also. Its a 2015 Scott catalogue so its a little old but it definitely helps me to identify as best I can being an "amateur stamp collector." Lol. I'll have to look again at the stamp and see if I can see a grill. I have a little loupe with a light. A cheap one but it works lol maybe I can take a picture of it through the loupe. <----- I don't think I spelled that right Lol |
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beezy07
**Member**
Inactive
wondering if I should focus on collecting in just one certain area for now....hmmmm.. 🤔
Posts: 43
What I collect: Anything that catches my eye!
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Post by beezy07 on Sept 26, 2018 9:14:05 GMT
I just won this stamp from an auction on Ebay . Any thoughts and how do I tell if a stamp has a "grill" or not?? Any and all input is appreciated . Also I tried to search for a thread on this but came up empty. I might have used the wrong description to search I'm sorry if I did but I'm still learning how to maneuver around this forum and find posts and threads. The first thing would be the price, if the seller knew their product, the 3 grill types are scarce and command a fair price. If you can see a grill by chance, it becomes fairly easy to identify and you can eliminate some choices with secret marks depending on which printer was used Post a reply if you can see a grill.
can anyone tell if there is a grill just by looking at it?? I tried to get as close as possible and I was able to take a picture through my little loupe. Lol     |
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Ryan
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Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,720
What I collect: If I have a catalogue for it, I collect it. And I have many catalogues ....
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Post by Ryan on Sept 26, 2018 10:27:53 GMT
You'll probably have better luck looking at the back side of the stamp. The grill is an indentation device that punches little peaks into the paper. The idea was that this would slightly damage the paper with little tiny bits of tearing / breaking of fibres and that it would then be impossible to remove the cancellation from within those broken fibres. These images are nabbed from the Wikipedia page on stamp grills - notice that it's much easier to spot a grill when looking at the back of the stamp.   Ryan |
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Sept 26, 2018 10:38:18 GMT
You'll probably have better luck looking at the back side of the stamp. The grill is an indentation device that punches little peaks into the paper. The idea was that this would slightly damage the paper with little tiny bits of tearing / breaking of fibres and that it would then be impossible to remove the cancellation from within those broken fibres. These images are nabbed from the Wikipedia page on stamp grills - notice that it's much easier to spot a grill when looking at the back of the stamp. Ryan Great post, Ryan, thanks! You can see the grill clearly in the scan (or photo) on the back, even with the hinge remnant still in place. |
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tomiseksj
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Woodbridge, Virginia, USA
Posts: 6,263
What I collect: Worldwide stamps/covers, Cinderellas, Ohio Prepaid Sales Tax Receipts, U.S. WWII Ration ephemera
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Post by tomiseksj on Sept 26, 2018 12:19:30 GMT
From the images posted, the stamp does appear to be Scott 160 (white wove paper without grill; two small semi-circles around ends of lines defining ball in lower right corner). I see no indication of a grill on your stamp but, as Ryan has indicated, grills are typically best observed from the reverse of the stamp. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2018 13:22:35 GMT
This is a closeup of the 160 Continental printing "secret mark"
So yours appears to be a 160 and not the 138 or 149 from National Printing
Since yours has a straight edge it was discounted.
In North America straight edge stamps are not well received, in Europe & Asia this is not the case and some special collectors pay premiums for them particularly 2 edge corner ones to make mini sheets. So you have a good stamp in my opinion.
160a's with grill hardly ever come up for sale and a decent copy would probably get $4000 or more
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2018 17:50:47 GMT
A 160a fake to beware of
Sometime in 2015 an eBay seller started to offer some of the rarer stamps with grills.
It appears he used genuine issues and applied some fairly inaccurate grills. Unfortunately many collectors fell for it and parted with hundreds of dollars before he was shut down. That's the beauty of eBay and others - you can get shut down but you collect your money and pass GO without landing in jail.
This fake and others have showed up elsewhere so there may be many of these fake grills around
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beezy07
**Member**
Inactive
wondering if I should focus on collecting in just one certain area for now....hmmmm.. 🤔
Posts: 43
What I collect: Anything that catches my eye!
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Post by beezy07 on Sept 27, 2018 6:53:46 GMT
This is a closeup of the 160 Continental printing "secret mark"
So yours appears to be a 160 and not the 138 or 149 from National Printing
Since yours has a straight edge it was discounted.
In North America straight edge stamps are not well received, in Europe & Asia this is not the case and some special collectors pay premiums for them particularly 2 edge corner ones to make mini sheets. So you have a good stamp in my opinion.
160a's with grill hardly ever come up for sale and a decent copy would probably get $4000 or more Thanks for the input guys I really appreciate it. 👍 I have a question though... Probably a dumb one actually but what is the "secret mark"? wait its Probably the link you posted right? I just saw that. lol. I guess the next thing I should learn is the difference in paper no?? you amazed me with that knowledge of paper bro. all you guys amaze me with how much you know. I mean I know we all have to learn at some point but everyone is so quick and precise with the answers it's almost intimidating....but amazing at the same time. Lol any suggestions on what might be more important to learn right away besides grill and difference in paper? |
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beezy07
**Member**
Inactive
wondering if I should focus on collecting in just one certain area for now....hmmmm.. 🤔
Posts: 43
What I collect: Anything that catches my eye!
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Post by beezy07 on Sept 29, 2018 12:22:28 GMT
A 160a fake to beware of:
Sometime in 2015 an eBay seller started to offer some of the rarer stamps with grills. It appears he used genuine issues and applied some fairly inaccurate grills. Unfortunately, many collectors fell for it and parted with hundreds of dollars before he was shut down. That's the beauty of eBay and others - you can get shut down, but you collect your money and pass GO without landing in jail.
This fake and others have showed up elsewhere so there may be many of these fake grills around.
  so...after seeing your post about the "fake grills" I realized I had made a purchase and it looked like what you had described. Luckily I got a refund without causing waves or accusations. he may not have known it was fake but after he said "no problem, I already shipped but it's ok you can just keep it" the proverbial red light came on. Lol. who would give away a vintage stamp for free. safe to say I think I dodged a bullet. and I don't think it was shipped anyhow. it doesn't say it was. anyway thanks for the lesson!! |
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susiecc
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What I collect: General US, Precancels, Monaco, India Feudatory States, the World!!
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Post by susiecc on Mar 8, 2020 18:00:17 GMT
I was hoping someone could help me identify the grill on this stamp. It is not entirely clear which makes the determination difficult. Since you all are so good at everything stamps, I decided to post some pictures. I scanned the front and back, then contrasted it to find the area. Because the grill is not well defined, I couldn't tell. I then read the posts about fake grills and although I did not get this from ebay, it would also be nice to know if it's actually real. Help?  |
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tomiseksj
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Woodbridge, Virginia, USA
Posts: 6,263
What I collect: Worldwide stamps/covers, Cinderellas, Ohio Prepaid Sales Tax Receipts, U.S. WWII Ration ephemera
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Post by tomiseksj on Mar 8, 2020 18:26:37 GMT
susiecc, Can you provide a high resolution scan of the back of the stamp, without any manipulation?
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susiecc
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What I collect: General US, Precancels, Monaco, India Feudatory States, the World!!
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Post by susiecc on Mar 8, 2020 18:30:56 GMT
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WERT
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Post by WERT on Mar 8, 2020 18:59:47 GMT
susiecc...Possibly 13 by 17...my opinion..Could be wrong....."Z" grill... 
Robert
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susiecc
Member
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What I collect: General US, Precancels, Monaco, India Feudatory States, the World!!
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Post by susiecc on Mar 8, 2020 19:52:50 GMT
Hello Robert, That is pretty much what I measured. I'm just not certain because the grill is so light. Even contrasting the image, that upper grill portion kind of goes away. I have a couple other ones and those are just as bad (or worse) than this one. thank you for confirming my best guess.  |
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renden
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What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Mar 8, 2020 20:34:53 GMT
Now I need a course on "grills"  (serious) Thanks |
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tomiseksj
Moderator
Woodbridge, Virginia, USA
Posts: 6,263
What I collect: Worldwide stamps/covers, Cinderellas, Ohio Prepaid Sales Tax Receipts, U.S. WWII Ration ephemera
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Post by tomiseksj on Mar 8, 2020 22:31:30 GMT
susiecc , I get a count of 12 by 17 which would make it an F grill. Have you tried measuring the dimensions? If it measures about 9mm by 13mm then that would confirm an F grill. One thing I found useful at times in getting a better view of the points is to place the stamp face down in some watermark fluid and hold the tray at a slight angle with side lighting until you get the best position to count the points (see this post).  Another approach is to rub a pencil back and forth on a scrap of paper and then very lightly rub the back side of the stamp with the scrap so that the graphite adheres to the points.
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renden
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What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Mar 8, 2020 23:03:04 GMT
Thanks ....still over my knowledge at present - Rene
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WERT
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Post by WERT on Mar 9, 2020 0:46:14 GMT
susiecc
I think tomiseksj may be right...Using my software i get a better look at the grill.....12 x 17 for sure...."F" grill
Robert
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renden
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What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Mar 9, 2020 2:11:34 GMT
susiecc
I think tomiseksj may be right...Using my software i get a better look at the grill.....12 x 17 for sure...."F" grill
Robert
Robert, please teach me about those "grills" I have seen in USA stamps - Thanks |
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susiecc
Member
Posts: 63
What I collect: General US, Precancels, Monaco, India Feudatory States, the World!!
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Post by susiecc on Mar 9, 2020 12:15:39 GMT
So, after soaking in watermark fluid...  |
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henrye
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Post by henrye on Oct 1, 2020 23:34:24 GMT
Moderator Note: This post and the ones that immediately follow were part of a new thread titled: Identifying grill type on a Washington 3c stamp. They have been moved and merged into an existing thread on U.S. Classic Grills & Their Identification on 02-Oct-2020
I have a few different stamps with grills on them. While I am confident of the grill types on a couple (nothing valuable, darn it), there are some I can not identify. Ultimately I know I have to get some appraised but I would like to narrow the list. Here is one I am struggling with. I have to get some better close ups of the grill on it, but these two images may help. The first is being top-lit by sunlight and the second has sunlight reflected up through the bottom of it. On the grill, you can see where it looks like a bow-tie over by where his hair is knotted.  
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Post by mdroth on Oct 1, 2020 23:40:02 GMT
Need pictures from the back!!
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renden
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What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Oct 1, 2020 23:42:48 GMT
Agree with mdroth - I am not a connaisseur in "grills" but have seen the backs in a thread on TSF - we should go back to that thread;
René
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khj
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Post by khj on Oct 2, 2020 1:16:16 GMT
There are 2 DIY options for difficult to see or unclear grills if it cannot be determined by initial visual or pic examination of the back. 1. use a small piece of unwrinkled aluminum foil, put on the points up side of the stamp, gently run your fingernail tip over the foil (holding both foil and stamp steady), and most of the points should start showing up as little dents in the foil. 2. digitally process the image to heighten grayscale contrast, or run it through retroReveal |
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henrye
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Post by henrye on Oct 2, 2020 1:46:06 GMT
Here is one from the back. Taken in direct sunlight. I amgoing to see if I can get some better images and close ups of the grill.  |
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khj
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Post by khj on Oct 2, 2020 7:03:29 GMT
Scan is preferable over a camera pic -- stamp flatness makes a significant difference when it comes to minute details.
From the last picture, your stamp appears to be D grill. You would have to make the physical measurements to confirm.
Can't help you regarding whether the grill is genuine. I don't like what appears to be 2 different cancel ink colors, nor the top perfs (but maybe that's because the stamp isn't flat?).
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(serious) Thanks
