Londonbus1
Moderator 
Cinderella Stamp Club Member 3059
Posts: 4,864 
What I collect: Cinderellas and some Ephemera from Great Britain, France and Israel plus a few beautiful bits from elsewhere !! Topical interests include Flags & Judaica, the latter with an emphasis on the Jewish National Fund.
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Post by Londonbus1 on Sept 25, 2018 19:04:01 GMT
TRANSVAAL. 1902 Issue from De La Rue by Typography. KEVII, SG260-272 Wmk: Multiple Crown CA, Perf 14  |
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Londonbus1
Moderator
Cinderella Stamp Club Member 3059
Posts: 4,864
What I collect: Cinderellas and some Ephemera from Great Britain, France and Israel plus a few beautiful bits from elsewhere !! Topical interests include Flags & Judaica, the latter with an emphasis on the Jewish National Fund.
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Post by Londonbus1 on Sept 25, 2018 19:42:07 GMT
TRANSVAAL 1905-09 Wmk: Multiple Crown CA, Perf 14. SG#273-276 (Including 273a)  |
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Londonbus1
Moderator
Cinderella Stamp Club Member 3059
Posts: 4,864
What I collect: Cinderellas and some Ephemera from Great Britain, France and Israel plus a few beautiful bits from elsewhere !! Topical interests include Flags & Judaica, the latter with an emphasis on the Jewish National Fund.
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Post by Londonbus1 on Sept 26, 2018 8:28:02 GMT
Postage Dues. Typo by De La Rue Wmk: Multiple Crown CA, Perf 14 Part Set used.  |
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Londonbus1
Moderator
Cinderella Stamp Club Member 3059
Posts: 4,864
What I collect: Cinderellas and some Ephemera from Great Britain, France and Israel plus a few beautiful bits from elsewhere !! Topical interests include Flags & Judaica, the latter with an emphasis on the Jewish National Fund.
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Post by Londonbus1 on Nov 15, 2018 20:24:29 GMT
Transvaal 1900. Some examples of the first issue under the 2nd British Occupation during the Boer War. Issued on June 18th. These are stamps from 1895-96 overprinted V.R.I. (Victoria Regina Imperatrix).  |
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hrdoktorx
Member 
Posts: 6,588
What I collect: France (and French territories), Africa, Canada, USA, Germany, Guatemala, stamps about science, flags, maps, stamps on stamps...
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Post by hrdoktorx on Dec 17, 2018 21:40:32 GMT
I didn't see a thread for Transvaal, so let's start one, with some of the stamps I just received today from Londonbus1:  |
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renden
Member
Posts: 8,705
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Dec 17, 2018 22:28:59 GMT
I have some.......I may put on the thread......if Xavier does not do all of them (lol) !!
René
Good show LB1/Xavier
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hrdoktorx
Member
Posts: 6,588
What I collect: France (and French territories), Africa, Canada, USA, Germany, Guatemala, stamps about science, flags, maps, stamps on stamps...
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Post by hrdoktorx on Dec 17, 2018 23:04:06 GMT
Well, since renden asked, here are my other Transvaal stamps:  |
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renden
Member
Posts: 8,705
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Dec 17, 2018 23:09:13 GMT
As soon as I check - will see if there are some left to scan... Merci ! Xavier - Thanks hrdoktorx  |
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hrdoktorx
Member
Posts: 6,588
What I collect: France (and French territories), Africa, Canada, USA, Germany, Guatemala, stamps about science, flags, maps, stamps on stamps...
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Post by hrdoktorx on Sept 24, 2020 17:23:37 GMT
More exciting new arrivals from Londonbus1 , this series from Transvaal, but labelled "Z. Afr. Republiek", which makes it hard to immediately identify if you're not in the know:  |
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,261
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Jan 8, 2022 13:18:38 GMT
Yesterday I started looking at some early issues of TRANSVAAL from the 1870s period. It is an absolute minefield for the uninitiated I found . The originals are found imperf , rouletted and Perf , with half a dozen different printers involved over the 7 years of issue ,before they were overprinted V R for the British Occupation . Sorting the printers is a challenge in itself but then there are the forgeries ! Many of the forgeries, and there is a huge number of these, are better looking than the genuine printings. I have 20 of these stamps but only 2 are considered genuine by another stamp colleague. I had a lesson from him on how to spot the real ones and I reckon of 24 on ebay this week 21 are forgeries, offered (unrecognised?) at high prices. One is doubtful and two are genuine. This seems to suggest the forgeries are 10 times more common than the originals . My Genuine two, + two forgeries , and what to look for (The three essential details may be obscured by a postmark ) Genuine Forgery  1 The eagle eye is a white circle Smudged eye 2 The "D" in EENDRAGT touches the edge of the ribbon Letters EENDRAGT are clear 3 The Right flagpole through MAGT does not touch circle Pole touches the Circle ![]() ![]() ![]()  ![]() ![]() |
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JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,600
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
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Post by JeffS on Jan 8, 2022 16:57:57 GMT
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JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,600
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
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Post by JeffS on Jan 8, 2022 18:38:20 GMT
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Post by paul1 on Jun 2, 2022 13:38:06 GMT
Quote from part of JeffS link ........................... "According to “The Transvaal Study Circle”, reprints outnumber originals many thousands to one." Bit disheartening really, plus I should look before leaping - just noticed that Londonbus1 has already posted five of the seven 1907 SG D1 - D7 postage dues. Some of these are too white, so I can imagine those may well be forgeries. Anyway, for what it's worth here was what I had in mind .......... I shall have to look more in depth at Transvaal to avoid mistakes. Forgot to say that it seems the most sought after of these things, apart from finding originals rather than fakes, is the inverted p for d on the 5d. - it's probably the serifs that give it away.  |
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Post by clivel on Jun 2, 2022 16:08:30 GMT
"According to “The Transvaal Study Circle”, reprints outnumber originals many thousands to one." ... Some of these are too white, so I can imagine those may well be forgeries.
When I first started out collecting, I started with Transvaal, definitely not a good choice for a beginner, and the huge number of reprints and forgeries soon put me off.
However, as far as I am aware, this does not apply to the Postage Dues, so these are most certainly genuine.
Clive
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Post by paul1 on Jun 15, 2023 14:25:10 GMT
Difficulties with the South African Republic, during the final third of the C19 make this area very difficult, and having peeped into that world I've now put it on hold for a while, yes, a coward writ large. With thanks to JeffS, vikingeck and others for links and suggestions that may possibly help avoid mistakes - forewarned is hopefully forearmed. The picture here shows what purports to be the Transvaal deep green £5 'Coat of Arms' from 1892, SG 187, mint unmounted, an original of which requires very deep pockets - this came in unexpectedly with a whole bunch of WW miscellaneous - and about which SG write ... "Most examples of SG 187 on the market are either forgeries or reprints". Looking at this one closely, the slightly patchy deposit of colour was what I assumed would be the defining feature that confirms a non-original stamp, but that seems not to be the case. The link provided by JeffS, appears to show that bona fide examples also suffer from a poor colour saturation - showing very small areas of minute white specks. The forgeries/fakes shown in that link give examples of 'broken horizontal bar' on the A, and a strikingly garish green that is a very different shade to genuine stamps. The perfs. on my stamp look almost too good, but do seem to be 12 p. across the top. SG also comment that reprints of many of the genuine period issues were apparently knocked out - c. 1911 - from the original plates - just to make life that much more of a challenge. I'm tempted to suggest that my stamp is possibly a plain reprint from the early C20, and grateful for any thoughts on that please, but am only commenting thus since the printing quality looks passable and colour is about right. On the other hand of course, if someone wants a 'gap filler' - I'm open to offers over £K3 ;-);-);-)  |
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Post by gstamps on Jun 19, 2023 19:32:39 GMT
I only found the overprinted stamp:  The picture is not in real color and the perforation is 12 x 12.5. I compared my stamp with paul1's stamp and with a genuine stamp (taken from "stampforgeries")  The genuine stamp in the middle has larger holes and I ask you if it is not a mistake in Scott.  |
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Post by paul1 on Jun 19, 2023 20:57:10 GMT
hmmm ... thanks gstamps. We're up against the old problem of how colours appear on the screen, and the middle 'genuine' stamp does not appear on my screen as 'dark green, though it's possible that the slight cream/buff colour of the paper is possibly confusing us - also the perfs. appear to lack quality in their punched shape, and colour density is again poor.
In the overprinted stamp, the appearance of the type face is poor, and lacks the sharpness of the other two shown. The catalogue extract shown, draws attention to the 'whiter paper' of the later (early C20) reprints, which is how I'm still tending toward believing mine is. In view of the comment about 'excellent counterfeits. of 135 (£5), I have a feeling that even if I had a spare few thousand, I'd be scared to invest.
Frankly, I don't get the feeling we're any further forward, but do appreciate people's thoughts.
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Post by gstamps on Jun 20, 2023 9:45:29 GMT
I have long since given up identifying stamps by color. I pay more attention to perforations, printing methods, paper and watermark. The information from Scott that the perforation holes from the reprints are larger is an easily observable element....but my question is regarding the correctness of the information.  Of the three stamps compared, the one in the middle (assuming it is genuine - claim "stampforgeries") has larger perforation holes...contradictory information than the one in Scott. I hope I was understood this time and I look forward to your opinions. |
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Post by clivel on Jun 20, 2023 17:00:07 GMT
The information from Scott that the perforation holes from the reprints are larger is an easily observable element....but my question is regarding the correctness of the information. Unfortunately, neither Scott nor Gibbons are very helpful when it comes to this issue. Scott provides enough information to confuse, without actually being useful, Gibbons, on the other hand, seems to leave well alone, only noting that most examples on the market are either forgeries or reprints:
The book "Transvaal Philately", which devotes 4 1/2 pages to the forgeries and reprints of this stamp, notes that forgeries were produced by both Sperati and Fournier amongst others, many of which can be relatively easily identified by the "serious student". The book also notes that multiple reprints of this stamp were made and that these present a more serious problem for the collector. For all values, other than for the £5 stamp, reprints can readily be identified by colour, however, for the £5 stamp this is not a reliable indicator and instead genuine stamps are identified by means of the perforator that was in use.
Without trying to summarise a whole section of the book in one sentence and possibly adding to the confusion, it should be noted that 14 different perforation combs were in use by Enschedé, and that by examining greatly enlarged images and comparing examples held by the Post Office Museum Pretoria, it has been possible to positively identify the actual comb used for perforating the original stamps. Genuine stamps can now be identified by comparing large scale enlargements, approximately 6 times actual size, to reference images, and that the expert committee of the Philatelic Federation of Southern Africa has access to the necessary reference photographs and records.
The book was published in 1986, so further information may have come to light in the interim, Clive
Edit: I also meant to add, that many of the reprints have had forged VRI overprints applied.
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Post by gstamps on Jun 21, 2023 4:57:23 GMT
Thank you clivel for your explanations. The catalogs (I'm also referring to Michel) are often confusing in their explanations. Are there editing mistakes, a misunderstanding of specialized works or simply do the experts intentionally not reveal these differences very clearly? In a public discussion on a website, I received a lot of information about the identification of a forgery, but at one point the interlocutor wrote: "it is necessary not to reveal all the clues that can help counterfeiters" I agree with him and the only method is to purchase (it is not the case at my budget level) these genuine stamps and have the experience to analyze them. |
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Post by clivel on Jun 21, 2023 23:17:10 GMT
Thank you clivel for your explanations. The catalogs (I'm also referring to Michel) are often confusing in their explanations. Are there editing mistakes, a misunderstanding of specialized works or simply do the experts intentionally not reveal these differences very clearly? In a public discussion on a website, I received a lot of information about the identification of a forgery, but at one point the interlocutor wrote: "it is necessary not to reveal all the clues that can help counterfeiters" I agree with him and the only method is to purchase (it is not the case at my budget level) these genuine stamps and have the experience to analyze them.
I think that for the most part research into forgeries is often performed by individuals or small teams of individuals who have access to the necessary resources to be able to conduct an in depth study. These would include having access to known genuine stamps often held in post office or postal museum archives as well as access to a sufficient number of forgeries often created by different people.
The results are then published in society journals or reference books mostly with very small print runs.
So I don't think that anyone is intentionally obscuring the details, not even to fool the counterfeiters, it is just that the information is hard to come by. Also, most forgeries of classic stamps were created years back, whereas modern forgeries are most often intended to defraud the post office, not collectors, so there would be little point in trying to hide the clues.
As far as the catalogues go, it is probably a fine line between the editors having the resources to perform the necessary research or simply plagiarising the works of others which of course would not be acceptable. Also, there is of course the issue of space, for practical purposes most catalogues are unable to devote more than a few lines to a forgery, unlike a specialist book such as "Transvaal Philately" that is able to devote 4 & 1/2 pages to a single stamp.
Clive
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Post by gstamps on Jun 22, 2023 6:36:49 GMT
Hi clivelThank you for the explanations that seem much more logical to me than the statement received from another collector: "it is necessary not to reveal all the clues that can help counterfeiters" I think that in fact he should have said: "buy our magazines and specialized works or send the stamps to the experts" Nothing is free or if it is free it is confusing. |
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sudbury12000
Member
Posts: 313
What I collect: Canada, Great Britain, Germany, World Pre 1925
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Post by sudbury12000 on Oct 20, 2023 13:17:06 GMT
Wow, so much to read about Transvaal forgeries. From vikingeck I am deeming my last purchase as all forgeries. Judging solely on the position of the D in EENDRAGT. I hope I got this right and thank you for your help. Is Transvaal the most forged stamps country (Colony)?  |
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Post by clivel on Oct 20, 2023 18:24:44 GMT
Wow, so much to read about Transvaal forgeries. From vikingeck I am deeming my last purchase as all forgeries. Judging solely on the position of the D in EENDRAGT. I hope I got this right and thank you for your help. Is Transvaal the most forged stamps country (Colony)?
Your 3d and 6d denominations are the redrawn design with folded wings on the eagle, which, if I recall correctly, the redrawn design also corrected the position of the D of EENDRAGT inline with the other characters.
Nevertheless, judging from the cancellations it is still possible that these are reprints or forgeries. Typically these 3 ring cancel strikes are not as clear when genuine.
As far as I remember, only the 3d and 6d denominations were issued with the redrawn folded wings design, unfortunately, however my catalogues and other stamp literature have yet to be unpacked from a recent move, so I can't confirm this at the moment.
Clive
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sudbury12000
Member
Posts: 313
What I collect: Canada, Great Britain, Germany, World Pre 1925
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Post by sudbury12000 on Oct 23, 2023 15:42:07 GMT
clivel , thank you for your expertise!
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