brightonpete
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Post by brightonpete on Oct 5, 2018 13:22:51 GMT
So some German stamps I bought arrived in the mail yesterday. I am sorting through them & noted CTO's in place of postally used. I would have thought that Germany would not stoop as low as this. The stamps in question are from the 2002-2004 Historic Sites issues Scott #'s 2211 & 2212, both high values: €2.60 & €4.10! I am not happy getting this!
Is this a common practice with Germany?
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ajkitt
Member 
Posts: 175
What I collect: Classics, Central Europe, World
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Post by ajkitt on Oct 5, 2018 14:40:35 GMT
So some German stamps I bought arrived in the mail yesterday. I am sorting through them & noted CTO's in place of postally used. I would have thought that Germany would not stoop as low as this. The stamps in question are from the 2002-2004 Historic Sites issues Scott #'s 2211 & 2212, both high values: €2.60 & €4.10! I am not happy getting this! Is this a common practice with Germany? The Scott Specialized lists a CTO vs postally used warning for the German inflation issues, so I've got to think they've been doing it for nigh on a hundred years, yes? I mean, if it was an income source for the post office then, why would they change?
btw... is there a good resource out there somewhere for identifying cto postmarks? Some of them are obvious, but some a bit less so... .
Thanks, Andy
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brightonpete
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On a hike at Goodrich-Loomis
Posts: 5,110
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Post by brightonpete on Oct 5, 2018 14:59:22 GMT
The Scott Specialized lists a CTO vs postally used warning for the German inflation issues, so I've got to think they've been doing it for nigh on a hundred years, yes? I mean, if it was an income source for the post office then, why would they change?
btw... is there a good resource out there somewhere for identifying cto postmarks? Some of them are obvious, but some a bit less so... .
Thanks, Andy
I couldn't tell you about the CTO postmarks. I JUST started into Germany, so I have very little info. It's just that the stamps are cancelled exactly alike, and the 4 of them have full gum on the back. Maybe back in the day CTO would have been necessary to add to their coffers, but today, especially with high values? C'mon! |
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Post by feebletodix on Oct 5, 2018 17:25:37 GMT
oops, edit , my thought did not include gum on the back, going quiet now.
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ajkitt
Member
Posts: 175
What I collect: Classics, Central Europe, World
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Post by ajkitt on Oct 5, 2018 22:01:23 GMT
oops, edit , my thought did not include gum on the back, going quiet now. yeah, full gum is quite the clue, yes? :-) But that's not always the case, especially when someone is trying to pass off a cto as used. Are there any other methods, other than the whole pristine, thin-lined, nonintrusive off-the-image look they usually have? |
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ajkitt
Member
Posts: 175
What I collect: Classics, Central Europe, World
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Post by ajkitt on Oct 5, 2018 22:08:11 GMT
The Scott Specialized lists a CTO vs postally used warning for the German inflation issues, so I've got to think they've been doing it for nigh on a hundred years, yes? I mean, if it was an income source for the post office then, why would they change?
btw... is there a good resource out there somewhere for identifying cto postmarks? Some of them are obvious, but some a bit less so... .
Thanks, Andy
I couldn't tell you about the CTO postmarks. I JUST started into Germany, so I have very little info. It's just that the stamps are cancelled exactly alike, and the 4 of them have full gum on the back. Maybe back in the day CTO would have been necessary to add to their coffers, but today, especially with high values? C'mon! I dunno. In this day and age, what with so many people e-ing their mail instead of making permanent hard-copies, and downloadable postage, and all the other things they do nowadays, what are they to do? I'd think there has to be minimum print runs to make a stamp worth printing, but not enough buyers?
Maybe if we all got together and forced everyone to collect postage stamps, all the countries of the world could sell their full print runs without resorting to selling off their (cancelled) excesses? ;-)
But we shouldn't do that until AFTER I fill a few more holes in my collection. I don't want a whole bunch of new collectors driving the prices up on the stamps I still need! :-)
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salentin
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collecting Germany,where I live and about 20 more countries,half of them in Asia east of the Indus
Posts: 5,618
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Post by salentin on Oct 6, 2018 3:16:40 GMT
In Germany it is possible to order c.t.o. stamps from the Philatelic Services.There is a choice of positions of the cancels. Michel values used stamps with cancels,what "clearly show date and place".
Modern stamps of the last 100 years,or so,with killer cancellations of any type are practically considered worthless. Except of some better stamps,what might bring 10-20% of a "round-cancel" specimen. So many people order c.t.o. stamps and are happy to pay full face-value for these.
I personally do not mind to collect c.t.o.,as long as the quality is O.K. Most modern expensive issues,like the early souvenir sheets,do not exist other than c.t.o. This includes first-day-cancellations etc.,what are c.t.o. as well.
It is a different matter with most stamps of the DDR (GDR): They were sold at a discount from mint stamps.So Michel lists them postally used and also c.t.o.
A completely different matter are the issues of the inflation following WW I.
Some of these issues could be used for a short time only,sometimes just a few days,before the ongoing inflation had made them worthless.However they were easily available and were (on demand) c.t.o. Or even more frequent,cancelled with backdated cancellations to let them look postally used. Michel prices for postally used stamps of that periode are for expertised specimens only !
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theamateurphilatelist
Member
Keep calm and collect stamps!!
Posts: 317
What I collect: India, Machins, India, Laos, Austria, Russia, Commonwealth omnibuses, Covers, Birds
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Post by theamateurphilatelist on Oct 6, 2018 10:21:06 GMT
I have been rummaging through a lot of DDR and noticed that most were CTO. Initially I was a bit upset. And then i wondered why most collectors (myself included) look at CTOs with such disdain? I was visualizing the stamps in the lot looking at me with sad droopy eyes asking me this question whilst sobbing under their breath asking what's their fault in this?
Ok, nuf dramatization, LOL!.
Serious question: Why don't collectors like CTOs?
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ajkitt
Member
Posts: 175
What I collect: Classics, Central Europe, World
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Post by ajkitt on Oct 6, 2018 12:56:20 GMT
I have been rummaging through a lot of DDR and noticed that most were CTO. Initially I was a bit upset. And then i wondered why most collectors (myself included) look at CTOs with such disdain? I was visualizing the stamps in the lot looking at me with sad droopy eyes asking me this question whilst sobbing under their breath asking what's their fault in this? Ok, nuf dramatization, LOL!. Serious question: Why don't collectors like CTOs? For me, it boils down to the question of why collect used stamps at all? Mint are undisturbed by cancellations, colors still crisp, edges still sharp, etc. so they are obviously more visually appealing. They feel different, not just because they still have gum, but (particularly so with engraved stamps) they still have a real, palpable texture. So yes, I like having mint copies of everything when I can afford them.
Postally used, on the other hand, have more of a connection to history for me. Somebody went to a post office and bought that stamp. Someone had a message to send that they thought warranted the expense of that stamp's purchase and use. Someone saw that stamp, after it was 'used up', and still thought it had enough intrinsic value to warrant saving from the trash. In most cases, someone physically cut that stamp from its envelope, package, what have you, and then took steps to separate it from whatever it was affixed to. When I see a postally used stamp, I see the line of people, separate from me in time and space, who handled that stamp with purpose. These stamps followed their lives, and that postmark gives at least a small record of that. So yeah, I collect used too when I can.
Cancelled to order, however, is neither of these. They are not pristine like mint, and they have no connection to history beyond the trail of the commercialization of 'collectability'. They are just space fillers to me.
Just my 2 cents... ;-) Andy
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theamateurphilatelist
Member
Keep calm and collect stamps!!
Posts: 317
What I collect: India, Machins, India, Laos, Austria, Russia, Commonwealth omnibuses, Covers, Birds
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Post by theamateurphilatelist on Oct 6, 2018 13:34:28 GMT
I have been rummaging through a lot of DDR and noticed that most were CTO. Initially I was a bit upset. And then i wondered why most collectors (myself included) look at CTOs with such disdain? I was visualizing the stamps in the lot looking at me with sad droopy eyes asking me this question whilst sobbing under their breath asking what's their fault in this? Ok, nuf dramatization, LOL!. Serious question: Why don't collectors like CTOs? For me, it boils down to the question of why collect used stamps at all? Mint are undisturbed by cancellations, colors still crisp, edges still sharp, etc. so they are obviously more visually appealing. They feel different, not just because they still have gum, but (particularly so with engraved stamps) they still have a real, palpable texture. So yes, I like having mint copies of everything when I can afford them.
Postally used, on the other hand, have more of a connection to history for me. Somebody went to a post office and bought that stamp. Someone had a message to send that they thought warranted the expense of that stamp's purchase and use. Someone saw that stamp, after it was 'used up', and still thought it had enough intrinsic value to warrant saving from the trash. In most cases, someone physically cut that stamp from its envelope, package, what have you, and then took steps to separate it from whatever it was affixed to. When I see a postally used stamp, I see the line of people, separate from me in time and space, who handled that stamp with purpose. These stamps followed their lives, and that postmark gives at least a small record of that. So yeah, I collect used too when I can.
Cancelled to order, however, is neither of these. They are not pristine like mint, and they have no connection to history beyond the trail of the commercialization of 'collectability'. They are just space fillers to me.
Just my 2 cents... ;-) Andy
Fair enough and makes sense. The reasons you state for used stamps are exactly why I like collecting used stamps too. Ok, follow up question: Why do CTOs exist? I can imagine special cancellations for collection (like say FDC cancellations). However most CTOs I have seen look like regular cancels. And most CTO stamps are floating around as singles with no distinctive cancellation. So what's the point that of CTOs? Were CTOs sold at lower cost than mint stamps? |
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brightonpete
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On a hike at Goodrich-Loomis
Posts: 5,110
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Post by brightonpete on Oct 6, 2018 13:41:45 GMT
Fair enough and makes sense. The reasons you state for used stamps are exactly why I like collecting used stamps too. Ok, follow up question: Why do CTOs exist? I can imagine special cancellations for collection (like say FDC cancellations). However most CTOs I have seen look like regular cancels. And most CTO stamps are floating around as singles with no distinctive cancellation. So what's the point that of CTOs? Were CTOs sold at lower cost than mint stamps? From what I have read, various postal administrations have sold remainders at a discount to dealers as a quick way to recoup losses from them otherwise throwing them out. That's why I don’t like CTO, no matter how or why they were produced. |
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