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Post by dgdecker on Feb 13, 2018 18:31:00 GMT
If you look closely it's got obvious perfs on all sides - yup, trimmed. I'm thinking a forgery. Well, David ( dgdecker ), not that any further opinions are really needed, but I'm with Kelly on this one: if you look closely at the stamp, you can definitely see the evidence that the stamp was perforated and trimmed. Beyond that, I don't know for sure. The image looks pretty good to me, but the color is certainly off. Could be a changeling? That can occur for a variety of reasons; everything from excessive exposure to sunlight, too much soaking in water, or even deliberate treatment with chemicals that affect the ink. If I had to guess, as the stamp was already trimmed to make it appear imperforate, and that was certainly intentional, I would surmise that the color was also intentionally altered to try to make collectors think that it was a color trial proof or something. I am glad I can trust my instincts on this. From the beginning, I thought it was a trimmed stamp made to look imperf. I can accept that colour has changed over the years and that it may be a natural occurrence. No way of hiding the trimmed perfs though. thanks for your help. david
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Post by dgdecker on Feb 13, 2018 18:34:18 GMT
The "proof" is definitely just a trimmed (possibly altered as BG noted) fake but not a forgery Some many years ago I collected Canadian Provinces and proofs die/color were very inexpensive. Based on major auctions in the US they still sell far below the Unitrade pricing. Anyway I have never seen any listings for other than India paper although some were affixed to card stock. Here are a few 5c from my archives Bluish Green trial color proof Black proof Color proof with slight color variations I have seen this series in perforated proofs but not the 5c Thanks for your insights. From my first look, I felt something was not right. Cannot find any references the proofs on « thin » paper.
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Post by dgdecker on Feb 13, 2018 19:39:07 GMT
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Poodle_Mum
Member
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Posts: 252
What I collect: WW to 1950; All German Eras; Imperial Russia & USSR; All Occupations and Colonies of Germany and Russia; Canada; QV and Belgian Railways
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Post by Poodle_Mum on Feb 13, 2018 23:12:34 GMT
I hadn't thought of a fake. I don't have any fake copies in my collection that I know of. Except for the one that in stumped over - all are obvious forgeries due to various albeit sometimes subtle errors in the design.
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Poodle_Mum
Member
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Posts: 252
What I collect: WW to 1950; All German Eras; Imperial Russia & USSR; All Occupations and Colonies of Germany and Russia; Canada; QV and Belgian Railways
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Post by Poodle_Mum on Feb 13, 2018 23:19:40 GMT
Sadly my #10 mint has no gum. It was the first higher value stamp that I'd ever bought, moving me from novice to the next level in collecting. I learnt the hard way. Never made that mistake again.
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Poodle_Mum
Member
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Posts: 252
What I collect: WW to 1950; All German Eras; Imperial Russia & USSR; All Occupations and Colonies of Germany and Russia; Canada; QV and Belgian Railways
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Post by Poodle_Mum on Feb 13, 2018 23:23:15 GMT
The one question that came to mind, as I've said, I don't have any proofs is that I've only heard of them being on harder paper, something similar to cardstock. I've never heard of a proof with perfs.
Never crossed my mind to consider a fake. Learn something new everyday.
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Post by dgdecker on Feb 13, 2018 23:57:23 GMT
I hadn't thought of a fake. I don't have any fake copies in my collection that I know of. Except for the one that in stumped over - all are obvious forgeries due to various albeit sometimes subtle errors in the design. I have a copies of many of the forgeries. They usually have a oval » specimen » overprint. I do have a fake overprint on a genuine stamp. This has a certificate to go along with it. Have to find it and post image. These are a few of well known and identified as forgeries.
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Post by dgdecker on Feb 14, 2018 0:02:05 GMT
Sadly my #10 mint has no gum. It was the first higher value stamp that I'd ever bought, moving me from novice to the next level in collecting. I learnt the hard way. Never made that mistake again. I do have a couple without gum, but I knew this when I bought as they were identified as such. I did acquire a few forgeries thinking they were the real thing. I should have looked more closely at images. Luckily I did not pay very much for them . I took it to be a cheap educational experience. david
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Post by dgdecker on Feb 14, 2018 0:07:07 GMT
The one question that came to mind, as I've said, I don't have any proofs is that I've only heard of them being on harder paper, something similar to cardstock. I've never heard of a proof with perfs. Never crossed my mind to consider a fake. Learn something new everyday. I have been looking through old auction/ sales catalogs and there has not been a « thin » proof listed for sale in the last 25 years in North America. I have suggested to the seller he change his listing description to « possible proof » and to mention the perf remmenants. I think potential bidders need to know this so an informed decision to bid can be made. I am considering it to be a fake and have bid accordingly. david
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Poodle_Mum
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Posts: 252
What I collect: WW to 1950; All German Eras; Imperial Russia & USSR; All Occupations and Colonies of Germany and Russia; Canada; QV and Belgian Railways
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Post by Poodle_Mum on Feb 14, 2018 6:55:54 GMT
The good thing about the cents issues is that forgeries are generally easily identifiable. Likewise with the Scott #1 - the Queen's face is always distorted. The heraldic issues are another story completely. Those suckers can cause migraines except for the really badly designed ones.
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Poodle_Mum
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Posts: 252
What I collect: WW to 1950; All German Eras; Imperial Russia & USSR; All Occupations and Colonies of Germany and Russia; Canada; QV and Belgian Railways
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Post by Poodle_Mum on Feb 14, 2018 6:58:08 GMT
Fake overprint on a genuine? That's just wrong!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2018 13:50:28 GMT
My only proof with perfs Certified by Canadian Greene foundation I believe these were trade sample trial color proofs and they came in a variety of colors on grayish paper Made by American Bank Note. If I remember right, this would have been about $20 Trimming these would probably not have worked as all the samples I have seen, there was no room to cut them. Somewhere on my project list, I will do a NS article - I believe I have enough material???
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Post by dgdecker on Feb 14, 2018 19:07:12 GMT
Fake overprint on a genuine? That's just wrong! Here is my copy !
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Post by dgdecker on Feb 14, 2018 19:12:26 GMT
My only proof with perfs Certified by Canadian Greene foundation I believe these were trade sample trial color proofs and they came in a variety of colors on grayish paper Made by American Bank Note. If I remember right, this would have been about $20 Trimming these would probably not have worked as all the samples I have seen, there was no room to cut them. Somewhere on my project list, I will do a NS article - I believe I have enough material??? I need to add proofs with perfs to my « I want, I need « list . Wonder where I will find the budget for that?
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Post by dgdecker on Feb 14, 2018 19:20:46 GMT
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Poodle_Mum
Member
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Posts: 252
What I collect: WW to 1950; All German Eras; Imperial Russia & USSR; All Occupations and Colonies of Germany and Russia; Canada; QV and Belgian Railways
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Post by Poodle_Mum on Feb 15, 2018 2:01:53 GMT
Very nice. I always love to see issues that have a part of the next stamp.
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Poodle_Mum
Member
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Posts: 252
What I collect: WW to 1950; All German Eras; Imperial Russia & USSR; All Occupations and Colonies of Germany and Russia; Canada; QV and Belgian Railways
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Post by Poodle_Mum on Feb 15, 2018 2:04:02 GMT
My only proof with perfs Certified by Canadian Greene foundation I believe these were trade sample trial color proofs and they came in a variety of colors on grayish paper Made by American Bank Note. If I remember right, this would have been about $20 Trimming these would probably not have worked as all the samples I have seen, there was no room to cut them. Somewhere on my project list, I will do a NS article - I believe I have enough material??? Gorgeous detail - that's a beauty.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2018 15:14:21 GMT
Does anyone know if NS plate proofs exist on « thin » paper as opposed to India Paper as indicated in Unitrade 2018 page 696. There is one described as such listed on EBay. thanks David Initially I would have suspected that the proofs were on India paper only since it doesn't absorb well and provides a cleaner impression. However doing some research on Nova Scotia I came across another type of relatively unknown proofs on ordinary paper. These proofs are known as "Goodall Proofs" Theory states that; 1. They were produced for visitors by James Goodall (president of the American Bank Note Company) on a hand printing press in his office 2. They were salesman samples made by the ABN Co A sample of a Goodall
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Post by dgdecker on Mar 5, 2018 2:43:45 GMT
Does anyone know if NS plate proofs exist on « thin » paper as opposed to India Paper as indicated in Unitrade 2018 page 696. There is one described as such listed on EBay. thanks David Initially I would have suspected that the proofs were on India paper only since it doesn't absorb well and provides a cleaner impression. However doing some research on Nova Scotia I came across another type of relatively unknown proofs on ordinary paper. These proofs are known as "Goodall Proofs" Theory states that; 1. They were produced for visitors by James Goodall (president of the American Bank Note Company) on a hand printing press in his office 2. They were salesman samples made by the ABN Co A sample of a Goodall A wonderful example. Glad to know of proofs on non India paper do exist. Something else to look for.
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firstfrog2013
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Posts: 3,276
What I collect: BNA Liberia St Pierre U.S. Bolivia Turkey
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Post by firstfrog2013 on Mar 16, 2018 17:10:46 GMT
The OCD kicks in and now there is more 2-3 's Looking for determination of #2 or #3 's. reverses are backwards.
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Post by dgdecker on Mar 18, 2018 5:19:51 GMT
My newest acquisition arrived yesterday. It got it for 2$ US from a seller in Holland. I have no idea why anyone would have done such a trim job on it. It has a huge hidge remmenant on back. It is very thin paper as well. It looks and feels real to me. Has anyone seen a cut up version like this? I bought it as a « conversation » piece for my collection as price was right.
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firstfrog2013
Member
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What I collect: BNA Liberia St Pierre U.S. Bolivia Turkey
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Post by firstfrog2013 on Mar 20, 2018 16:28:43 GMT
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Post by dgdecker on Mar 20, 2018 18:20:11 GMT
First frog,
oh so envious. I am trying to refrain from further NS purchases so I can save for issues 1-5. Or more proofs.
david
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firstfrog2013
Member
Posts: 3,276
What I collect: BNA Liberia St Pierre U.S. Bolivia Turkey
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Post by firstfrog2013 on Mar 21, 2018 14:45:01 GMT
Mounting those recent arrivals today I naturally went through the motions of checking them as of now this one is of interest.I hope picture shows what is a vertical stich watermark on #8 printed on yellow paper.
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firstfrog2013
Member
Posts: 3,276
What I collect: BNA Liberia St Pierre U.S. Bolivia Turkey
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Post by firstfrog2013 on Mar 21, 2018 14:46:20 GMT
Well water marks are definitely hard to photograph.
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Poodle_Mum
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Posts: 252
What I collect: WW to 1950; All German Eras; Imperial Russia & USSR; All Occupations and Colonies of Germany and Russia; Canada; QV and Belgian Railways
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Post by Poodle_Mum on Mar 22, 2018 1:48:54 GMT
Frog - what beautiful collection of the cents issues. I have multiples of the low value cents but my primary focus has always been the pence issues.
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judith
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currently everything and anything up to 1968
Posts: 121
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Post by judith on Mar 22, 2018 4:42:05 GMT
I would never guess that as a photo of a stamp -- it looks like a beautiful picture of ice crystals on glass.
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judith
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currently everything and anything up to 1968
Posts: 121
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Post by judith on Mar 22, 2018 4:43:56 GMT
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firstfrog2013
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What I collect: BNA Liberia St Pierre U.S. Bolivia Turkey
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Post by firstfrog2013 on Mar 22, 2018 15:19:35 GMT
I'm looking for an explanation of the difference between reprints and actual forgeries? Is it only the issuing party?Also how do you tell the difference between reprints and the issues printed on white paper? Color?
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seigaku
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What I collect: Latin America, Japan, specialized Mexico (MEPSI member)
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Post by seigaku on Mar 22, 2018 15:50:35 GMT
As I understand it, reprints come off the true original printing plates, which may have been sold, stolen, etc., but the person doing the reprinting is usually not the original issuing party (or is not acting in an official capacity) so they may not be able to obtain the proper paper, gum etc. That is why paper thickness is often an indicator of reprints. Reprints are not always intended to deceive initial buyers, but they certainly do deceive later collectors. Forgeries are produced from different plates that have been carefully prepared to look like the originals, and almost always in order to deceive the buyers. I could give you lots of examples from Latin America, but that would be off-thread here.
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