coastwatcher
Departed
Rest in peace
Kentucky, USA
Posts: 506
What I collect: Currently focusing on US and possessions
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Post by coastwatcher on Jan 27, 2019 22:30:50 GMT
I recently began receiving emails from Apfelbaum, Inc. and tried looking them up on the American Stamp Dealers Association website. I could find nothing so I did a general web search. I found that John D. Apfelbaum, president of Apfelbaums, pleaded guilty on Jan. 28, 2002 to two felony counts of violating the Sherman Antitrust Act in a criminal probe of bid rigging at stamp auctions. I found out that Apfelbaums was a former member of the ASDA but whether they left voluntarily or were forced out is unclear. As far as I can tell, there are no mentions anywhere on the ASDA website of disciplinary actions, either against Apfelbaums or any other stamp dealers.
Contrast this to the American Philatelic Society. In their disciplinary action section, it says that John D. Apfelbaum was “expelled” on May 1, 2002 and the reason given was “under the Society's Bylaws, Article 2.11.5, Member Charged with Crime.”
I find it disturbing that, if Apfelbaums was in fact a member at one time, the ASDA has no mention of this on their website. Whenever I’m checking out a new dealer with whom I may spend hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars, one of the first places I head is to the ASDA website. Unfortunately, this will only tell you if the dealer is a member or not. You can learn nothing about disgraced dealers who have been forced out.
Membership in the ASDA doesn’t mean as much to me as it used to. While trying to check out non-ASDA members, the lack of information on their website makes it mpossible to tell if they just never bothered to join or were former members who were forced out. The APS website, on the other hand, makes it easy to see if past and present members have skeletons in their closet in regards to philately.
So, is the ASDA worthwhile? In my humble opinion, the answer is no.
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firstfrog2013
Member 
Posts: 3,276 
What I collect: BNA Liberia St Pierre U.S. Bolivia Turkey
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Post by firstfrog2013 on Jan 27, 2019 22:45:32 GMT
coastwatcher At the risk of receiving wrath, belonging to any organization means only that you paid dues.After everything else that is the bottom line.If it means something else to you,so be it.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2019 23:18:56 GMT
I don't think a dealer needs to be a "member" of a general organization to qualify as a trustworthy source.
The quality, proper description, decent images and honest pricing of what they sell speaks for itself, not having a paid membership as Frog noted.
Given the description of these random samples as being Extremely Fine and Very Fine, I would have a good idea of what to do next. Images from the Apfelbaum site
Given what you described as your interests, all or most of these countries have forums or societies that can direct you to good sources.
Reliable fellow collectors will always be the best sources
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Jerry B
Departed
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Marietta, Georgia USA
Posts: 1,485
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Post by Jerry B on Jan 28, 2019 12:15:58 GMT
Hi
In the past I have heard bad things about Apfelbaum auctions. Maybe at one time they were alright, but I would not trust them now. Whether ASDA is worthwhile, only a member dealer can answer that question.
Jerry B
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angore
Member
Posts: 5,331
What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on Jan 28, 2019 13:57:04 GMT
I have seen posts on another forum about some sellers on ebay that display their ASDA membership. I personally do not consider it as a factor in dealing with a dealer.
Also Kols of Regency-Superior was ASDA dealer of the year. The company then went bankrupt and any mention of him seems to have been removed from the ASDA website. He was expelled from APS but not sure about ASDA. I do not think they have a visible process like APS for transparency.
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Post by jimwentzell on Jan 28, 2019 14:58:53 GMT
Apfelbaum, among others, in my opinion, has tarnished forever its perhaps onetime good reputation through illegal business practices around twenty years ago for which it was charged and convicted. Bid-rigging and collusion/conspiring to break standard auction rules to enrich themselves at the expense of consignees (collectors who submitted lots to be sold by them) was well-documented, and exposed the dark underside of the philatelic auction business. You can rest assured these illegal, immoral, and possibly still practised acts play a significant part in the general mistrust and spoiling of our fine hobby in general. Overseas philatelic associations are not immune to trouble with the unethical actions of some of their former members; the Australian Stamp Dealers Association (also known as ASDA) has had their share of expelled members; one in particular still happily touting their ASDA logo for some time afterwards, as if nothing happened. There were others swept up in the US Department of Justice investigations around 1999 and some years thereafter. Davitt Felder Inc. (who I visited to inspect some auction lots in 1992 in their downtown San Francisco offices) seemed to be professional and well-run; a major player in philatelic auctions. I, like many collectors at the time, thought that being a respected member of the ASDA was a good sign. At some point Ruby Stamps emerged as their online reincarnation (same principal-- Davitt Felder) especially on eBay. Although they may have had a respectable share of mid-to high-end philatelic transactions--said to be in the hundreds per day--there ended up being massive buyer disappointments, to put it mildly. Here's a link to the US Department of Justice case in 2002 against Davitt Felder Inc.:
www.justice.gov/atr/case-document/information-147Along with Apfelbaum, the above were just two of the more well-known documented cases against well-known dealers. Yet the ASDA has done nothing, nor even commented to my knowledge, on any of these, or other charges or judicial proceedings against their former members. Sad. All one can really do is avoid those who have tainted reputations. Research online (best if from sources which can be independently verified) those dealers/individuals with which you plan to spend considerable amounts of your stamp money. Before sending off your prized philatelic material, ask around, and patronize only those dealers who have sterling reputations. As the Regency meltdown/fiasco progressed there were signs something was amiss. Pay attention to what recent consignees say; the disappointed seller promised way more than what was delivered could be you next time! Know that eBay, PayPal, ASDA, even the APS and nearly any other philatelic-related business will always look out not for the collector/consumer, but their OWN best interests, basically. At least some of these organizations ( APS, and to some extent the ASDA, at times) sometimes give more than token lip service to their glowing mission statements!
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Jerry B
Departed
Rest in Peace
Marietta, Georgia USA
Posts: 1,485
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Post by Jerry B on Jan 28, 2019 22:25:01 GMT
Hi
Interesting observations.
In the past, I have bought from the now defunct Regency-Superior and Ruby stamps. I had no problems with either of them. One auction house that I had bought a lot of material from was the old Gold Medal Auctions, which I believe is wrapped up into Kelleher Auctions.
Speaking of shady dealers. In New York City, there used to be a "dealer" that walked around shows with an accountant's case full of stamps, some fairly valuable. You could request a stamp and he made a note. You could not buy a stamp from him at the show. He would tell you which diner to meet him at, usually a specific diner in Queens. At the diner he held "court" at a corner table. At the appointed hour there would be 1 or more people waiting to pick up and pay for their purchases.
If one collected US stamps there was a source that was impeccable and honest, the clerk at the Grand Central Station Post Office philatelic window. You handed him a want list and left. You came back later to pick up and pay for your stamps. The only problem was that, if you wanted 1 stamp, he might give you more than one. No one complained. It was all legal as the stamps he filled want lists with were stamps he purchased himself. He was written up in the Daily News or the New York Post, I forgot which.
Only in 1950's and 1960's New York would one find these weird source for stamps.
Jerry B
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angore
Member
Posts: 5,331
What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on Jan 28, 2019 22:33:45 GMT
The issue with Regency was that consignees, including APS, of material did not get payments after the stamps were sold. They were months in arrears but we later learned that slow payment was known. They left a lot of debt.
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firstfrog2013
Member
Posts: 3,276
What I collect: BNA Liberia St Pierre U.S. Bolivia Turkey
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Post by firstfrog2013 on Jan 28, 2019 22:52:13 GMT
Jerry I think Ruby stamps were actually quite good.I lost track of them when I moved to the mountain and couldn't get internet service.By the time I got back online they were gone.It wasn't uncommon for me to bid on multiple lots from their listings.
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Post by sherro on Jan 29, 2019 2:01:40 GMT
A small correction, the Australian version is the Australian Philatelic Dealers Association (APTA). There's been two notable expulsions, neither of which are mentioned at all on the site. This is definitely a failure in process
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Post by jimwentzell on Jan 29, 2019 5:03:44 GMT
Hi Dave (Sherro) Thanks for the correction. The Australian dealer who was expelled from the Australian Philatelic Trade Association (APTA) has this blurb on his website "About Us" section:  Pretty slimy, as he doesn't definitively state he IS a member, just that it's important that a reputable and experienced dealer SHOULD be affiliated......I guess being expelled for unethical practices (a rare and extreme punishment) still qualifies as being "affiliated with...."?!? |
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ryebob
**Member** 
Posts: 7
What I collect: US, UK, Swiss, Australian, New Zealand, Germany
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Post by ryebob on Feb 8, 2019 0:06:15 GMT
ASDA puts out a reasonable magazine and I find membership a reasonable check of a dealer's credentials. As to Apfelbaum, after the 3rd stamp I purchased from them failed to match how they advertised it, I put them on my "do not do business with" list.
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coastwatcher
Departed
Rest in peace
Kentucky, USA
Posts: 506
What I collect: Currently focusing on US and possessions
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Post by coastwatcher on Feb 15, 2019 16:42:18 GMT
I just thought that I’d let everyone know that I sent a copy of my original post to the ASDA as an email at the same time that I made the post. As of today, I have yet to receive a reply.
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coastwatcher
Departed
Rest in peace
Kentucky, USA
Posts: 506
What I collect: Currently focusing on US and possessions
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Post by coastwatcher on Feb 18, 2019 19:03:02 GMT
I recently found out that John Peters, who was the president of the ASDA when the incident occurred, was arrested in 1985 for colluding with a Philatelic Foundation employee to forge authentication certificates. Peters resigned as a result. This lowers my respect (or lack of) for the ASDA even further.
Chicago Tribune Article |
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