stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on May 26, 2019 1:25:28 GMT
3 and 4 are one "thin" paper, so I am assuming 1 & 2 were printed on somewhat heavier (thick) paper.... anyway to tell, better that...this one feels thinner than this one? the good news is you won't here me asking aboiut Penny Reds (for a while)
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khj
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Post by khj on May 26, 2019 4:18:04 GMT
Scott Belgium #1-2 are different design from Scott Belgium #3-4; the frames are different. The 1st set has no oval, and the value text is simple horizontal along the bottom. The 2nd set has an oval frame, and the value text is in an arc beneath the bottom of the oval.
Or maybe you meant to ask #3-4 and #6-7?
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khj
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Post by khj on May 26, 2019 5:10:18 GMT
For comparison, top row #1-2, bottom row #3-4:
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vikingeck
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Post by vikingeck on May 26, 2019 8:09:52 GMT
The nicknames for the two types illustrated are Epaulettes and Medallions respectively
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on May 26, 2019 13:46:46 GMT
Doh! (headslap) I looked at the illustrations for several hours yesterday while scanning, watermarking and such, and never even noticed....
so that makes that much simpler! LOL
Thanks
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vikingeck
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Post by vikingeck on May 26, 2019 14:20:19 GMT
Stan a week or so ago you posted some Belgium stamps on the thread "Whatcha been Stamping?" I notice that one at the end of the 1st row of Leopolds is an Epaulette Scott #2 rather than the Medallion type 4 which the others are. lousy screen snip but this is the one with Postmark "45" from Ghent / Gand By the way with any of these early classics it can be worth while checking out the Postmark numbers as some are scarce and worth more than the basic stamp, that "76" LOUVAIN is nice also with good margins Try this link for post office numbers bigblue1840-1940.blogspot.com/2018/04/belgium-1849-1865-epaulettes-and.html
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on May 26, 2019 14:46:39 GMT
Thanks to both khj and @vickingeck for clarifying this... still dumbfounded I did not notice the difference until it was pointed out! yes, at the moment my one and only Epaulette! and thank you @vickingeck for the link, I will bookmark!
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on May 29, 2019 0:26:40 GMT
Adding to the storyline
I've noticed that # 1 and #2 seem to be relatively hard to find- E bay, Hipstamp and others really don't have much to offer, with the blue (vingt/20 cent) being more common.
For those that have collected the various shades- did this prove difficult to accomplish, and/or were the shades often questionable as to what the stamp actually was?
While Scott (WW) calls out the 4 shades of the 10 cent and 3 shades of the 20 cent, SG (WW) lists # 1 and 2a only ...but then jumps to #12 for the 1861 imperf, so I'm guessing the SG concise delves into this further (I have purchased on, but it hasn't arrived yet)
SG WW seems to bypass quite a few stamp #'s( at least 33!) until it reaches #63
just curious as to others thoughts
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blaamand
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Post by blaamand on May 29, 2019 10:02:36 GMT
Shades of no 1 and 2 are quite distinct. I once saw a exhibition of them demonstrating that. However to find them is another question.... According to COB there are 10 shades of the 10c, at least as far as I can remember from when I made my custom made pages. Less shades for the 20c, 5? Can't remember exactly.
You probably also know the 20c comes in two different types, fewer shades of Type II, think it was only 3. I was struggling to see the difference between type I and type II anyway on my own stamps. Seemed that my copies fitted the descriptions for both types. Oh well..
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vikingeck
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Post by vikingeck on May 29, 2019 10:20:24 GMT
Adding to the storyline SG WW seems to bypass quite a few stamp #'s( at least 33!) until it reaches #63 just curious as to others thoughts SG Stamps of the World only lists the basic and least expensive of any type and pays no heed to perforations , watermarks or shades. They do have the full listing in their specialised catalogues which is why there are numbers missing from SOW.
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blaamand
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Post by blaamand on May 31, 2019 17:31:37 GMT
stainlessb - This suggestion might be a bit late....but if interested in a much better reference for Belgian stamps than Scott or SG, I can help. Interested in the COB catalog? It will give you all the shades and details you would ever want
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on May 31, 2019 17:52:01 GMT
blaamand why yes!! I would be, web searches is not finding me anything definitive
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renden
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Post by renden on May 31, 2019 18:04:57 GMT
stainlessb - This suggestion might be a bit late....but if interested in a much better reference for Belgian stamps than Scott or SG, I can help. Interested in the COB catalog? It will give you all the shades and details you would ever want What does COB stand for, Jon René Thanks stainlessb and blaamand - Belgique - Belgie René
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khj
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Post by khj on May 31, 2019 18:40:51 GMT
Catalogue Officiel Belgique. Don't get too old of a catalog version -- the older versions list less color varieties than Scott Specialized and don't list the different types either.
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on May 31, 2019 19:03:59 GMT
by Frank Geiger?
and is 1979 too old?
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blaamand
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Post by blaamand on May 31, 2019 19:04:00 GMT
stainlessb - Stanley - check your p.m. - 1999 version. Far beyond Scott in any respect renden - I believe COB stands for Catalogue Officiel Belgique - or something like it. At least it is an Specialized Belgian stamp catalog, including their colonies. You already have it available at your fingertips, Rene.... edit - ok, I see now that khj already answered about 'COB', while I was having my cup of coffee....oh well
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khj
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Post by khj on May 31, 2019 19:37:04 GMT
Just wanted to make sure you could have your coffee uninterrupted, Jon! k
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khj
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Post by khj on May 31, 2019 19:56:00 GMT
by Frank Geiger? and is 1979 too old? Probably too old. Mine is 1978 (Geiger) and it doesn't have too many color shades listed, nor does it list the types. Most likely need something at least from the late 1990s.
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tobben63
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Post by tobben63 on Aug 3, 2019 7:17:33 GMT
Ok, then I will start to work on the early Belgian stamps, Epaulettes and Medallions. I was thinking that I would try to keep Belgia No 1,2,3 and 4 in one tread for later use and search. This tread already has been started so I continue her if it is ok for stainlessb Stan? I don't have COB yet, but I think I will have it soon In the mean time I did find this: I think it could be useful. Link
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tobben63
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Post by tobben63 on Aug 3, 2019 7:48:50 GMT
Michel list 4 different colour shades to number 2. But where on the stamp must I determine the colour? The colour listed by Michel: 2a Blau bis hellblau = Blue to light blue 2b milchblau = milk blue 2c hellgrunlichblau = bright greenish blue 2d schwartzblau = black blue The stamp above is 2d in my eyes. On my screen it looks a bit more violet than in real life. I have used the Michel farbenfűrer.
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tobben63
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Post by tobben63 on Aug 3, 2019 8:24:27 GMT
Postmarks on my 1&2 Following the order of above image. No1 Pm: 64 = Jemeppe No2 Pm: 11x = ?? I think it looks like 115 = Thielt No2 Pm: 45 = Gand No2 Pm: 24 = Bruxelles
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tobben63
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Post by tobben63 on Aug 3, 2019 9:02:40 GMT
This is how Michel list it. Belgium 3-4 and 5. 1849/50 - 1851/54 (and 7,8 & 9) A logical way to start on these if I follow Michel catalogue is to decide the watermark (1). 3A, 4A and 5A has the watermark with frame, could be both ways. Then the rest should have watermark (2) without frame 3B, 4B and 5B, could be both ways. 1851/54 Then there is 3 papers, glassine paper (x), Normal, thick paper (y)(1851) and Ribbed paper (z)(1854) The letters in () is Michel id for the papers. They all are B = 3Bx, 3By or 3Bz Michel does not have anny colorshades listed for these? There is more!!!I thought I had it covered, but as I started to look for watermarks and there was some without watermark. I turned the page in catalogue and number 7-9 show up! Here we go. No watermark stamps (with no perf) comes with two different shapes of the oval (in medallion) and with different paper! 1858/1861 Type (die) I = Round medallion 16-17mm high and 14½-15mm wide. But the catalogue tell me not if this is the inside measure or outside measure? I think it must be the inside measure because I have also found that the measure on this should be 18 width x 21 height!! Frosted (satiniertes) paper what ever that means? 1861 Type (die) II Long medallion: 17-17¾mm high and 14-14¼ wide (inside measure?). Outside measure(?) 17,5 width x 22 height. Thin to normal "grained" paper.
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blaamand
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Post by blaamand on Aug 3, 2019 9:11:28 GMT
Nice stamps tobben63 !! Good question! I have been plagued by confusion on this to earlier, and have found a method I think work for me. I suggest to use the most intense/fully-color-filled part of the design to find the color. The area does not need to big at all, rather have the 'full color'. For the epaulettes, I will suggest the shadowed areas of 'POSTES', the denomination figures themselves, the filled part of the uniform-collar and/or the area below Leopolds chin. I find one can get misleaded when looking at areas of the design only partially filled with color, with white dots in between. One is also easily misleaded if looking at an area cluttered with ink from a postmark, like inside the circle in your post, in this case it makes the blue look more blackish-blue than it really is. An advantage if able to use colors at the corners or edge of a stamp (like in this case the figure of value at the corner) is that one can pile a lot of stamps almost above each other and then get the color'samples' from different stamps more closely together for a simultaneous comparison and assessment of the range of colors/shades. I often even use magnifier for this - and obviously proper light!
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blaamand
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Post by blaamand on Aug 3, 2019 9:13:35 GMT
Torbjørn - you need COB! There are shades on these to. Will send you a pm.
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Aug 3, 2019 14:19:08 GMT
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tobben63
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Post by tobben63 on Aug 3, 2019 15:24:31 GMT
There is more!!!I thought I had it covered, but as I started to look for watermarks and there was some without watermark. I turned the page in catalogue and number 7-9 show up! Here we go. No watermark stamps (with no perf) comes with two different shapes of the oval (in medallion) and with different paper! 1858/1861 Type (die) I = Round medallion 16-17mm high and 14½-15mm wide. But the catalogue tell me not if this is the inside measure or outside measure? I think it must be the inside measure because I have also found that the measure on this should be 18 width x 21 height!! Frosted (satiniertes) paper what ever that means? 1861 Type (die) II Long medallion: 17-17¾mm high and 14-14¼ wide (inside measure?). Outside measure(?) 17,5 width x 22 height. Thin to normal "grained" paper. COB measure the frame on the stamp. Michel measure the oval! Then that "trap" was sorted out
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blaamand
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Post by blaamand on Aug 3, 2019 16:05:34 GMT
Happy to see that you are now refering to the COB catalog Torbjørn, enjoy 😊
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blaamand
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Post by blaamand on Aug 3, 2019 23:17:12 GMT
Shades of #1 and #2 was discussed earlier in this thread. I wrote back then "Shades of no 1 and 2 are quite distinct. I once saw a exhibition of them demonstrating that." I just now found that exhibition again, on the fabulous 'Exponet' Exhibition side, thanks to Morten classicalstamps for reminding me. Follow THIS link and go to page 40-43 for an excellent exhibition of shades of Belgium #1-2. And loads of other specialized reference on these issues. Enjoy!
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Aug 3, 2019 23:52:43 GMT
blaamand !!! This is a most excellent resource!!! thank you classicalstamps for reminding you , and then you sharing!!!
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tobben63
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Post by tobben63 on Aug 4, 2019 3:34:55 GMT
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