|
|
stainlessb
Member 
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
|
Post by stainlessb on Mar 10, 2023 15:28:36 GMT
When/where is the earliest definition of "fugitive" ink?
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator 
Posts: 5,654 
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 10, 2023 16:22:35 GMT
|
|
vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,264
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
|
Post by vikingeck on Mar 10, 2023 17:04:44 GMT
I selected the following example from a recent auction catalogue for the Ake Rietz collection to clearly show that the paper used was NOT blue but rather the bluing takes place as result of the ink and impurities in the process. The quote below applies to the 1841 one penny red but colonial stamps printed before 1857 using the same ink and paper as the Great Britain issues containing Prussiate of Potash naturally also experienced bluing. Examples are Barbados, Trinidad, Cape of Good Hope and Chile.
Rob
The very point I was making in my comment on the webinar last night   "Cameo" of Hope on 4d Blue SG2 and Ivory Head on 1841 GB penny red |
|
DK
Member
Posts: 1,220
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
|
Post by DK on Mar 11, 2023 23:17:09 GMT
And the differences in the amount of resultant 'blueing' can be quite dramatic. From hardly any 'blueing' to a full 'Cameo' effect. SG8 selection with 'Maltese Cross' postmarks (therefore most likely in the plate 1 - 45 range!) :  Dave |
|
vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,264
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
|
Post by vikingeck on Mar 12, 2023 2:48:33 GMT
I am puzzled by the use of “fugitive “ in respect of the inks used on the penny red. Sure they could be affected by chemicals used in attempts to clean the cancel,but hardly affected by immersion in water. They resist soaking to remove paper, hinges and gum traces without loss of colour . So what is fugitive about the ink in these? Now the GB lilac and greens of 1880s and the Jubilee bicolours of 1897 with the red and green 1/- of Edward. These are what I understand as fugitive. The greens are invariably washed out and the aniline red leaches throughout the paper if immersed . Half an hour later I have just found the more detailed discussion started by Beryllium Guy in Feb 2022 with details on singly and doubly fugitive and am consequently wiser and less puzzled 👍 thestampforum.boards.net/post/138179/thread |
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,654
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 15, 2023 19:35:15 GMT
Question about Bluing of Paper and its Various AppearancesThanks to those who have been posting here. I have a question that I would pose to any and all for opinions. Better yet, it would be great if someone has a reference that describes this phenomenon in detail. My question is: why does the bluing appear uniform on the backs of some stamps, i.e., the same over the entire back of the stamp, but in other cases, it mirrors the printed areas on the other side, resulting in cameos, ivory heads, or other varieties? Any thoughts about that? I am in a bit of a quandary on this, because if the cause of the bluing is related to a reaction with constituents in the ink, it would make sense that the bluing would be preferential to those areas on the back that mirror where the stamp is printed on the front. On the other hand, if the bluing results from a reaction with the "size" or "sizing" (the weak glue that holds the paper together), that would seem to favor the case for a more uniform appearance across the back, without mirroring the printed areas on the front. Stevenson suggests the sizing in the paper as a potential cause. From the Classic Stamp Forgeries website: On the subject of the cameo or ivory heads, he goes on to say: Source: stampforgeries.blogspot.com/2021/04/cape-of-good-hope.htmlThe wording in this second section seems a little odd, as I wouldn't have considered the bluing as being "applied", but as an unintended result of a chemical reaction during the printing process. But I take the point that he has not seen any reasonable explanation for why the cameo or ivory head effect occurs. Thoughts on this, anyone?
|
|
|
|
|
|
JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,602
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
|
Post by JeffS on Mar 16, 2023 0:04:52 GMT
An excellent article. My brain had to process more than once.
|
|
REL1948
Member
Posts: 583
What I collect: 1840-Pre-Decimal, GB and Colonies, 1840 1 penny reds, Postal Histories
|
Post by REL1948 on Mar 16, 2023 5:14:45 GMT
Ivory Heads
Darn You Beryllium Guy, I haven’t been able to stop pondering the thread you started on the Ivory Head effect. The longer I think about it I have just one simple question whose answer might explain the effect but I’m also sure the exact answer won’t be simple.
Premise:
Seeking an understanding of the process that creates the Ivory Head effect to then be able to indirectly answer the question: why did stamp paper either completely turn a shade of Blue or selectively turn blue only in areas that had been inked.
Variables:
• Ink formulas are exact but subject to minute variations in daily practice
• Paper quality, is there a consistent proportion of ingredients from batch to batch?
• Mechanical equipment, as plates wear, they exert ever so slightly less pressure on the paper, microscopically changing the quantity of ink pushed into the paper
• Time of day: specific amount of alum impurities accumulating in the rinse water for the paper, we know it wasn’t changed daily
• Time of year: during the warmest seasons and without A/C, standard temperature and pressure are skewed, chemical and physical reactions can be affected, humidity could also play a role
• Specific amount of iron sulfate in the Prussiate of Potash in a given ink mixture
• Specific amount of potassium iron sulfate present in the rinse water
• Specific amount of alum on a given batch of paper
• Specific amount of excess alum (potassium iron sulfate) in a given batch of sizing
I believe that all of these quantities taken together and singularly contribute to create the Ivory Head effect. I sense that the proportions of Prussiate of Potash and iron sulfate whether it’s an excess in the paper or in the ink ultimately decides the intensity of the bluing and the location.
I question how the bluing reaction propagates. Is it through absorption, capillary effect, osmosis, electron transfer?
I have no idea but I can imagine that the ideal proportions to create all blue paper would have higher quantities of iron sulfate in the paper via sizing and excess iron sulfate in the Prussiate of Potash in the ink with the result being a homogenizing effect throughout the paper wherever ink is deposited? Paper wetness or dryness would also have an effect on spread and intensity of shade. This method displays where the boundaries of saturation end. The bluing creates a halo extending a little beyond where the inking stops; past that, the paper is the original color in the areas where no inking has occurred.
I can also imagine that the ideal proportions to create the Ivory Head effect would require a higher quantity of iron sulfate in the Prussiate of Potash (ink) and less in the paper/sizing with the result being a localized effect in the paper beneath the ink but very little or no homogenous spreading through the rest of the paper?
Whether either of these ideas holds water, one thing is for sure, the complexity of the relationships between all of these entities has to be considered together. None of them lives in isolation and all of them together create the observed outcome for a given batch.
The fact that Ivory Head examples are far, far fewer than those of fully blued paper shows that the conditions (proportions) necessary for their creation is not always present. The fact that there are vast quantities of lighter and darker shades of blue paper also shows the variability in their batch creation as well.
Please forgive my ignorance in the fine print, I’m not a chemist, just a student of our hobby looking for an understanding for this interesting phenomena. These are just my current thoughts on this philatelic mystery… Please share yours.
Rob
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,654
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 17, 2023 4:49:43 GMT
Many thanks for your thoughtful answer, Rob ( REL1948 ). I can tell that you put some real effort into that!  I realized from the beginning that it wouldn't be an easy or simple answer, or someone else would have come up with it by now. I had hoped that others like Alex ( vikingeck ) or Dave ( DK ) or Chris ( brixtonchrome ) or michael , who have studied the bluing of paper more than I have, would have been able to comment.... perhaps they still may. I agree with your assessment that the inconsistencies in the form that the bluing takes suggests that some complex combination of factors is at work. Even though I have studied chemistry back in my past, I was never a practitioner. So, I know enough to be dangerous, but not enough to give a plausible, scientifically valid explanation for what we can observe in these stamps. Your point that the cameos or ivory heads are less common than more uniform bluing seems valid, at least based on my limited experience with Cape Triangles, but perhaps those who deal with the early GB issues may be able to say differently. In the end, it's still a bit of a mystery, isn't it? Anyway, thanks for your response!  |
|
vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,264
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
|
Post by vikingeck on Mar 17, 2023 10:11:10 GMT
I have to confess to absolutely no expertise in the chemistry though it is in my University degree many decades ago.
I am simply pleased if I find a pronounced Cameo or Ivory head amongst the dozens or hundreds of evenly blued, I love them as an eccentricity without concern for the why or how.
|
|
