vakhtangchigogidze
**Member**
Posts: 15
What I collect: classic period issues (1840-1875) from all over the world; errors, oddities, forgeries...
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Post by vakhtangchigogidze on May 3, 2023 16:02:52 GMT
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brookbam
Member
APS 236261
Posts: 235
What I collect: US...everything until I decide what I don't want to collect! And now thanks to a TSF give-away I'm adding Space topicals!
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Post by brookbam on May 3, 2023 17:19:47 GMT
Interesting. About all I can add to the puzzle is that this appears to be Scott 179. There is also 181, but it's $450,000 and fewer than 10 are known. #185 appears to be an imperf if I'm reading the catalog correctly. But I could not find anything as far as a different size reference. I'd like to hear what one of the experts on here can point out. brookbam
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paul1
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Posts: 1,207
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Post by paul1 on May 3, 2023 18:19:35 GMT
hi - regret I know nothing about this stamp whatsoever, and it's all the more intriguing as it would appear from brookbam's comments that Scott makes no mention of a size difference, however, it is a known fact that in certain circumstances paper does expand in one direction far more than the other. Most paper has a 'grain direction' - the fibres are oriented mostly in one direction - and this is usually the result of the process of how the paper is made. When paper is wetted or has a glue applied, the moisture in water or glue causes the fibres to expand across their width - not their length. No idea if the paper used for this issue even had a grain, or what direction the grain was - is there any possibility this expansion could be the result of wetting/soaking the stamps off a backing material? P.S. Is there any possibility this difference could be caused by a variation in the process of printing the image - a flat die as opposed to a rotary process?
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khj
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Posts: 1,521
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Post by khj on May 3, 2023 18:52:18 GMT
[EDIT: ignore this post, especially last paragraph, I looked at one of the pics incorrectly. Sorry.]
In this case, the physical size of the entire stamps has nothing to do with paper or plate differences -- simply positioning of the perforating wheel when the stamp was perforated after the printing was completed. Stamps back then were line perforated. So it would not be unusual to find variations in widths or heights when comparing columns/rows within the same sheet. Your "larger" stamp on the right would be a nice large margin example. But the foxing unfortunately works against any premium associated with the larger margins.
For the Banknotes, it's been documented that for some issues, the perforation variation was deliberate. The perimeter rows have a slowly but noticeably increasing wider margin on 1 or 2 sides.
If it was an issue of paper moisture, the dimensions of the stamp design would be affected, in either 1 or 2 directions. As shown the pics provided, the stamp design dimensions are the same in all directions.
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vakhtangchigogidze
**Member**
Posts: 15
What I collect: classic period issues (1840-1875) from all over the world; errors, oddities, forgeries...
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Post by vakhtangchigogidze on May 3, 2023 19:38:20 GMT
well, thank you for your replies, I really appreciate your help... khj it's not about the entire stamp size, there is difference in design of the print in height (around 0.5mm)... so, either left one is shrinked or the right one is expanded (as paull mentioned) unfortunately i have only this two copies and can't compare to others, so I'm adding the photos near ruler and dare to ask you guys to compare it with your examples.
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khj
Member
Posts: 1,521
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Post by khj on May 3, 2023 20:01:06 GMT
OK, I see it. I was looking at your 1st pic and not paying attention to the bottom of the better 4th pic.
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stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,891
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on May 3, 2023 20:15:20 GMT
rotary print versus flat plate?
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khj
Member
Posts: 1,521
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Post by khj on May 3, 2023 20:16:23 GMT
Therefore, I walk back my first post. Left stamp is #179. Right stamp is #185. brookbam was on the right track. Both stamps are listed in the catalog as perf 12, including #185.
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khj
Member
Posts: 1,521
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Post by khj on May 3, 2023 20:18:41 GMT
rotary print versus flat plate? This stamp was before BEP started using the Stickney rotary press in 1914.
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khj
Member
Posts: 1,521
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Post by khj on May 3, 2023 20:55:30 GMT
From the excellent back view pic held up to light, the paper can be identified as "normal" wove (#179) and soft porous paper (#185).
Regarding the difference in vertical design/paper height, the explanation is a little tricky. The pics you supplied are camera pics and not scans, so there is a slight angle and the stamps are not completely flat. You will need to physically verify my "observations" from the camera pics.
These were printed during the "wet" printing era. The original moisture content of the paper (15%-35%), although significantly higher than the much later "dry" printing era (5%-10%), still varied over a large range. This could "technically" produce an ever so slightly taller stamp design if the original paper moisture content was at the lower end, compared to a stamp produced with a higher end moisture content, even within the wet printing era. Your ruler is not graduated evenly. I would say the difference in stamp design height in your 2 stamps is much less than ½mm, closer to ¼mm.
Out of curiosity, I pulled some #179s and #185s, and lo and behold, I could find a maximum ¼mm different in stamp design height among the stamps! Coupled with no difference in widths! You will notice that Scott gives a "range" on some the rotary vs. flat plate measurements, rather than exact measurements. I've mentioned before, this is to accommodate typical production variation -- when you are comparing ¼mm differences, it wasn't intended to reproduce stamp dimensions that accurately back then. Hence, ranges in paper moisture specifications, paper thickness...
Now here are some "interesting" things. My earlier comments about variations in perforation spacing still holds correct. Even a ½mm difference in stamp dimension height won't produce a 1mm difference in paper height. Your physical stamp is larger primarily because of the perforation wheel positioning.
But, it appears that your vertical perforations on both stamps are not the same! Ever so slightly off! Or maybe it's the camera angle? Please line up the vertical perforations and see if they line up well, or are off by about 1/8 hole as you go from top to bottom. Perforation is done well after stamp is printed and dried, including after the any applied gum has dried. So it should be unaffected by paper shrinkage. On my 179/186s, the perfs all line up well, even if the stamp dimensions were off by 1/8-1/4mm.
If your vertical perfs line up well, then no issue. But if they don't align well (and I can tell your stamps have not been reperfed), then there aren't many other reasonable possibilities to explain why the perfs on the taller stamp are also stretched vertically...
In the past, there were some dealers who would use a press (either a full vertical press or a roller press) to squeeze out creases. Given that #186 is on the thicker soft porous paper, I wonder if someone in the distant past may have rolled the stamp vertically through a roller press. That would have caused a very small permanent deformation of the soft porous paper in the vertical direction and contributed to both the stamp design stretching and the perforation "stretching" in one direction.
As an aside, in previous decades, there used to be a company that advertised a full stamp press specifically for this purpose.
I guess I could also imagine a scenario involving blotting paper that might also produce such an effect, but would be unsure how much and if it were permanent.
At any rate, interesting stamp/observation on your part. I wouldn't have thought to pull out my stamps to compare had you not posted.
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vakhtangchigogidze
**Member**
Posts: 15
What I collect: classic period issues (1840-1875) from all over the world; errors, oddities, forgeries...
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Post by vakhtangchigogidze on May 4, 2023 0:38:15 GMT
thank you for your such extensive and detailed answer... well, i've made close measurements and the difference is 0.37mm... i tried to compare vertical perforations and personally for me it doesn't seems they are lined up perfectly (see 1st photo)... moreover #185 seems like it has 11.3/4 perf (as shown on the 2nd photo) so, that it was rolled through a roller press is a good guess i think... maybe it was the dealer you mentioned or maybe the previous owner just altered this stamp this way, who knows? one funny thing: on the back side it has inscription "30k" with pencil, more likely value of the stamp... but, more likely in Russian
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khj
Member
Posts: 1,521
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Post by khj on May 4, 2023 1:05:30 GMT
Thanks for confirming about the vertical perfs. I can't think of a better explanation, but it's still just my best "guess".
It's good that you posted that picture of the 2 stamps held up to the light. I now realize it was a front-side pic, not a back-side pic. But it was very useful. To be honest, if you hadn't shown that, I would have guessed both stamps were probably #185. The left stamp has an usually high number of fibers sticking out of the edges of the teeth -- usually indicative of soft porous paper. But the pic held up to a light and the backside pic indicate the right stamp is the thicker soft porous paper. A lot of fibers sticking out of most of the teeth is a characteristic of soft porous paper, but the left stamp is a good example to demonstrate that it is not a sufficient condition for identifying soft porous paper.
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