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Post by spain1850 on Dec 22, 2013 5:08:17 GMT
Can anyone identify this type of postmark? I was going through an envelope of older on paper Belgium and found this one. It was the only one like it in the whole envelope. No town name or nothin', so I don't know. Any clues? |
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Dec 22, 2013 8:05:48 GMT
Wow! That is Splendiferous, beautiful.
I have a part cancel of the same type, may take a while to regurgitate it.
Cannot assist with ID, however the PERFIN may assist, at least with locale.
If I may be afforded a guess, I'd say Postal Savings Bank strike.
Looks similar to the normal Belgian "Pizza Cutter" roller cancels.
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Post by spain1850 on Dec 22, 2013 15:18:58 GMT
I hadn't thought about that, it does have the same design pattern as those "pizza cutter" cancels. And to tell you the truth (embarrassingly) I didn't even notice the perfin. The perfin looks to be a "B" and possibly another partial "B".
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Dec 23, 2013 0:46:05 GMT
BB = Banque Bruxelles 61 Rue de la Ryence Brussels. (Initials close together)
B B = Banque de Bruxelles (D'Anvers) 1933-1935 (Initials wide apart)
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Dec 23, 2013 0:55:17 GMT
It is worth noting, which may draw your example further into consideration,
that the "Pizza Wheel" cancels had 5 uses.
Bank Revenues.
Parcels
To cancel missed uncancelled stamps on covers. (very scarce to find)
Precancels. (debateable)
Postal Savings receipts.
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philb
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Post by philb on Dec 23, 2013 1:10:52 GMT
Specializing in Belgium must be quite challenging !!!
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philb
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Post by philb on Dec 23, 2013 1:13:59 GMT
Is this supposed to be my image ? I don't have nearly that much hair anymore !
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Dec 23, 2013 1:18:49 GMT
I am not sure "specialising" is the correct term, Prices of stock, prevent any old time study of early stamps. One just keeps observations and notes from other collectors, as a resource. The hidden danger there, is taking on incorrect advice, as in "precancels" stated above. As for the Avatar, I am not sure we have a follically challenged icon, in the array. Be thankful for small mercies  |
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I.L.S.
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Post by I.L.S. on Dec 23, 2013 7:45:54 GMT
Phil I changed your avatar but you, of course, can choose any one you want. I too thought the cartoon was unbecoming of such an admired member! PM me if you don't like it OK? -Jeff (ILS)
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Feb 18, 2019 22:12:39 GMT
Railway stamp 1902-14 without engraver's name Sc# Q39 is this a postal cancellation or a railway cancellation (and what is the difference)? and how does one read the date? Thank you  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 23:14:01 GMT
15 April 4PM 1903 The first is the date, then the month which may be written in French or roman numerals, then the time based on a 24hr clock and the last 2 digits of the year. At the top is Bruxelles the departure town usually in French sometimes in Walloon
The square cancel is the common type. Sometimes a regular round postmark is used depending if rail was not used. The early ones often have hexagonal cancels.
The argument that these stamps are just Cinderellas is still debated.
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Feb 19, 2019 1:12:28 GMT
@nl1947 OK, so April 15 @ 1600 hrs 1903- but is this a railroad cancel or postal- if a postal cancel (meaning, I will assume that mail was sent across the country/European continent by train), what sets them apart from each other? or were the railroad stamps only used on shipments of mail?
and then another question as it appears you posted an image from retroreveal- do you convert to .tif or does .jpg work well enough? I notice they recommend .tiff, but i wonder if it is more relevent to other documents (besides cancelled stamps)?
Thanks for all your help (and the good news is I'm almost sorta done with the Belgium sort!)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2019 2:07:47 GMT
You show a railroad cancel. I have to depend on knowledge from many years ago but I seem to remember that some stations had a stand alone post office that sold stamps used for delivery by the railway and in some instances by the government post office hence the regular round cancels which are much less common.
This is why for many countries that issue stamps only for rail use they are not included in general catalogs.They may strictly be for luggage or freight. This is the reason for the debate over whether Belgium railway stamps should be classified in catalogs like Scotts.
I am not aware that railway stamps were used for destinations outside Belgium. The country has always had an incredible rail system that accesses basically all the towns.
The image was made on Photoshop as I can get better results than retroreveal. As far as a tiff or jpg is concerned the jpg is smaller in size and more than suitable for TSF which may not handle tiffs. As long as you don't compress a jpg. too much there is no general advantage to tiffs.
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darkormex
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Post by darkormex on Feb 19, 2019 2:55:32 GMT
Here are examples of the various cancels from early railway stamps. These come from the two collections I am working on currently. This is Scott Q11 from the 1882 set with a Laroche 1891 round postmark. Unfortunately somewhat beaten up so any premium for the round cancel is pretty much nil. 
Here are a bunch of the 1940 overprints of the 1923 series with rectangular postmarks. 
And finally here is one of the hexagonal postmarks mentioned earlier on Scott Q23. I have not taken the time to research the town name but will try to come back to it.  |
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tobben63
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Post by tobben63 on Feb 19, 2019 6:31:53 GMT
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darkormex
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Post by darkormex on Mar 9, 2019 14:38:18 GMT
15 April 4PM 1903
The square cancel is the common type. Sometimes a regular round postmark is used depending if rail was not used. The early ones often have hexagonal cancels. I was looking on eBay trying to find a set of the modern 2003 kilopost Belgian parcel post stamps and noticed that there are a lot of individual stamps with the hexagonal postmarks for sale at hefty prices. Apparently this is a niche collectible area. Also, for those who may be interested going down the Belgian railway postmark rabbit hole, as I was looking more into railway stamps I found this link... List of Belgian Railway Stations with Photos
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Post by spain1850 on Jul 23, 2020 11:56:38 GMT
Can anyone tell me what the "EST 4" stands for, in this postmark? I can't find a town called "Est", so maybe something like "E Station 4"? I just don't know. Also, are there any online references for Belgian postmarks?  |
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Jul 23, 2020 14:04:43 GMT
spain1850 You might search here www.belgianphilatelicstudycircle.org.ukI have the 2003 Railway Parcel Post Cancellations of Belgium by Jones, 2003, and I find no mention of EST4, however he states circular postmarks were most often post offices which did not have direct rail service i am just leaving for my half day in the office, so I have no more time this morning!/!
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Jul 24, 2020 0:35:57 GMT
I've sent a request to BPSC to see if they have someone familiar with your cancellation- I will post their reply!
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Jul 25, 2020 17:57:54 GMT
I received this reply from BPSC (and it should help!)
"It’s a TPO (travelling post office) datestamp used on the Ligne Est (Liege to Erquelinnes) which met up with the Erquelinnes to Paris TPO. From memory, the “4” indicates the brigade ie the team working on the TPO. As you see it left at 3pm (3S = 3 soir). It looks as if it’s the third type (Scan attached from Bureaux Ambulants de Belgique 1840-1988, De Bast & Herman). Cat value 4 euros in addition to the stamp value."
scanned page deleted (I was reminded it was copyrighted) ...
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Post by spain1850 on Jul 25, 2020 18:10:58 GMT
spain1850 I received this reply from BPSC (and it should help!) "It’s a TPO (travelling post office) datestamp used on the Ligne Est (Liege to Erquelinnes) which met up with the Erquelinnes to Paris TPO. From memory, the “4” indicates the brigade ie the team working on the TPO. As you see it left at 3pm (3S = 3 soir). It looks as if it’s the third type (Scan attached from Bureaux Ambulants de Belgique 1840-1988, De Bast & Herman). Cat value 4 euros in addition to the stamp value." That's some great info, thank you. I agree it does look like the third type. I also wasn't aware of the time designation of 3-S. That will help me understand the others I have as well. |
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blaamand
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Post by blaamand on Jul 26, 2020 10:20:55 GMT
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Post by spain1850 on Jul 29, 2020 9:46:16 GMT
Another interesting postmark found. The wording of "Journaux" leads me to believe this was used to send a newspaper or periodical?  |
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Post by stamphinger on Jul 29, 2020 12:46:00 GMT
Doesn't journaux translate to "newspapers?" The canceling device may have been used for what the U.S. post office used to categorize as 2nd class mail which included newspapers.
Don StampHinger
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darkormex
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Post by darkormex on Sept 21, 2020 1:26:25 GMT
I think this postmark is Namur Railway Station, correct? I could not find another city in Belgium that ended in ...amur. I am also guessing that this is not a railroad postmark in the traditional sense in that it was probably just a small post office within the station that serviced people going to and from the trains. The stamp is extremely common but may be the grayish paper variety, Scott 52a, rather that the bluish paper, Scott 52. Any thoughts on this?  |
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darkormex
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Post by darkormex on Sept 21, 2020 1:28:38 GMT
Also, I would be interested to know if we can explore spain1850 's question about the postmark above....https://thestampforum.boards.net/post/103105. I am quite sure I have a stamp with a similar postmark and would like to learn more. |
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darkormex
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Post by darkormex on Sept 21, 2020 1:46:50 GMT
Ok. You can skip my question above regarding the Namur Station cancel because I just found and identical one in my stock on the same stamp. Also, given the ubiquity of this particular stamp, I can imagine you could amass a fairly complete Belgian town names collection. I have 9 right here, all different. I might even print a blank page and start doing just that.  |
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Post by thegubman on Oct 6, 2020 9:57:26 GMT
Belgium 10c preprint stationery 1898 postmarked Louvain station. Graham |
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JeffS
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Post by JeffS on Oct 6, 2020 11:13:15 GMT
thegubman - note that the printed DO NOT DELIVER ON SUNDAY tab has been obliterated. Nice.
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Post by thegubman on Oct 6, 2020 12:46:44 GMT
Thanks JeffS I did not know that, so learnt something new today which is great:) Cheers Graham
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