firstfrog2013
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Posts: 3,276
What I collect: BNA Liberia St Pierre U.S. Bolivia Turkey
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Post by firstfrog2013 on Apr 10, 2015 16:53:10 GMT
Moderator Note: This thread was originally started on the Newfoundland board, but I have moved it to the Stamp Collecting Basics board, as I think that it has greater applicability than just for Newfoundland issues. I am also moving over some posts from Whatcha Been Stamping? to add to the discussion.
I have become stuck on Newfoundland issue #183-199. There are a number of perfs for this issue and I don't mind reading the gauge.... but what am I looking for? The perfs listed for this issue are 13-1/2, line perf 14, perfs 13-3/4, 14, 14-1/4. There is also a line perf of 13.2 and a booklet perf of 13. How do I tell the difference between line perf 14 or just perf 14??
Talk about a confusing issue--try this one!
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cjd
Member
Posts: 1,107
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Post by cjd on Apr 10, 2015 18:53:13 GMT
I hope I'm answering the question you are asking. Comb perfs perf three sides of the stamp at once, leading to uniform corners, like this: It is easiest to see in a block or multiple. Line perfs are done separately, where the horizontal and vertical perfs are added in separate steps, resulting in haphazard corners, like this: There is no pattern to the corner perfs. The lines intersect every which way.
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rod222
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Posts: 9,871
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Apr 10, 2015 19:32:06 GMT
I have become stuck on Newfoundland issue #183-#199.there are a number of perfs for this issue and I don't mind reading the gauge but what am I looking for.The perfs listed for this issue are 131/2,line perf 14,perfs 133/4,14,141/4.There is also a line perf of 13.2and bklt perf of 13.how do I tell difference line perf 14 or just perf 14?? Talk about a confusing issue try this one. Further to cjd's post. Quick ID Look at Collin's German stamps, the top Right Hand Corner, The stamp perforations have a distinct "notch" as I call it. If your stamp has 4 corners like that, it is a comb or block perfed stamp, if the corners are irregular, they are line perfed. "Comb" comes from the design of the perforator die, looks like a hair comb. It punctures perforations on all 4 sides of the stamp at once, before advancing 2 lines of stamps and puncturing the next block of 2 lines of stamps in the sheet. With some Mozambique Company stamps (If I recall) the comb advanced on 1 perforating machine just a squidge longer giving the "notch" an elongated look. This is the only way to distinguish 2 identical stamps as having been printed by Waterlow or De La Rue
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cjd
Member
Posts: 1,107
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Post by cjd on Apr 10, 2015 20:12:39 GMT
I'm far from an expert on perforation machines, but here is what I believe to be true. A single-comb perforator will perforate three sides at once and advance one row or column and do it again. If it hit a paper once, it would leave the following pattern: By advancing one row, it perfs the fourth side of the previous row when making the next three-sided perf. A double-comb perforator would perforate two rows at once - one row (or column) on all four sides and the next row (or column) on three sides - and then advance two rows to repeat the action.
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firstfrog2013
Member
Posts: 3,276
What I collect: BNA Liberia St Pierre U.S. Bolivia Turkey
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Post by firstfrog2013 on Apr 10, 2015 20:38:19 GMT
Thanks guys,Easy to understand and visuals helped a lot.Now to file that information into my sieve brain.My new arrivals are piling up again,while I'm occupied with mounting Newfoundland on quadrilles.
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rod222
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Posts: 9,871
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Apr 10, 2015 22:54:14 GMT
Interesting. I have never seen an example of a single comb die. I am au fait with the common Brit and Australian "Grover" perforator. Note: The gap in the middle of the two dies, which allows for the interpanneau. PS: I made an error in the previous post, the "comb" actually does not advance, but the bed with the sheet of stamps advances, incrementally, underneath the puncturing pins.
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rod222
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Posts: 9,871
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Apr 10, 2015 23:28:10 GMT
Hmmm. I had an image in my archives Here is Mr. Grover, single comb, with larger Horiz or vertical Format stamps.
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cara
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Posts: 198
What I collect: Germany (FRG, GDR, Berlin); occupied Germany 1945-1949, Deutsches Reich 1872-1945, Switzerland, USA (newbie)
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Post by cara on Mar 15, 2021 17:13:46 GMT
Today I scrolled a little bit through ebay offers for US stamps. Nothing special, only normal stamps just to get a feeling what the prices are. And I noticed the following: - many offered stamps have missing perforation (especially the perforation at the corners) - many offered stamps have wavy postmarks examples: Would an US collector buy these stamps or are they of minor quality and not collectible? May be the question is stupid (sorry for that), but I saw so many US-stamps on Ebay as described above and perhaps thats ok? Thanks cara
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pattib
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Posts: 80
What I collect: Anything France but especially semi-postal. Worldwide to 1920.
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Post by pattib on Mar 15, 2021 17:39:18 GMT
Hi cara, that is a good question. I am not sure if there are any rules set in stone in the collecting world. I know that personally I would rather not have any stamps with the wavy lines or damaged corners. For me I would use these stamps as space fillers until I find a better copy. For US stamps, it does seem more difficult to find a nice cancel as opposed to the wavy lines. Just my opinion.
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madbaker
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Posts: 691
What I collect: (Mark) General worldwide collector (to 1975 or so) with a soft spot for Sweden and the rest of Scandinavia.
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Post by madbaker on Mar 15, 2021 18:31:15 GMT
Hi cara! I'd say those stamps are quite collectible as is. Or at least, it's the vast, vast majority of what I see offered, whether from ebay or a dealer. The wavy line cancellations are quite common, since US cancelling devices put the postmark in the centre of the envelope and then had wavy lines to cancel the stamp. I don't prefer them, and like pattib would always take a circular cancel if I could find one. I'm not an expert on perforators, but the corners you circled are quite common given how the two sets of perfs come together. That top right corner in the air mail stamp is pretty fragile. I can see that tiny bit of paper being removed when tearing stamps from a sheet at least 85 out of 100 attempts. So what you're showing is, to my eye, the vast, vast majority of US stamp material from that time period. Whether it's collectible is up to the collector, of course, but someone has to be collecting them because there is a heck of a lot of that material around! I'd expect a much slower hunt, possibly paying a premium price, for "perfect" used copies from that era. Hopefully a real US collector will have more to add to this. Great topic!
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cara
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Posts: 198
What I collect: Germany (FRG, GDR, Berlin); occupied Germany 1945-1949, Deutsches Reich 1872-1945, Switzerland, USA (newbie)
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Post by cara on Mar 15, 2021 20:11:49 GMT
Hi pattib, hi madbaker, Thank you very much for your assessment. Of course, there is no general rule, but as you have described, a basic attitude to it. And this can obviously vary from country to country (and is perhaps production-related?). Michel Germany Special says the following about the stamps "Marienkirche Lübeck": "Michel # 139 and 140 are mostly poorly perforated. The prices are valid with only small perforation flaws. Flawless stamps require at least 20% surcharge."This suggests that poor perforation is acceptable only in exceptional cases, but generally makes the German stamp worthless. This is also my knowledge for German stamps from German forums. But if most stamps in the USA have such a perforation, it is probably generally accepted. Perhaps there are other opinions on this? Many thanks cara
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ameis33
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What's in a name? That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet
Posts: 505
What I collect: Poland and Italy Republic
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Post by ameis33 on Mar 15, 2021 20:31:13 GMT
Well, but where is the perforation fault in the two stamps showed? That's just what a linear perforation gauge could create, there is absolutely no fault at my eyes... In this post i've shown an italian stamp (from my collection) with the question: how do you judge it? Because in this case it's not the matter of linear perforation, a teeth is missing... thestampforum.boards.net/thread/8204/italy-postal-parcel-judge-stampI mean the right-top corner... the right-bottom corner on the other end, it's pretty similar then those you showed above... And about wavy lines, isn't one of the primary job of the post offices (or dispatchement offices) to cancel stamps? So, what's a wavy line postmark if not a way to cancel a stamp? Or we should guess if a pen cancel on a n. 1 of Russia should be good or not? Not always the post offices work in the way we would like, but that doesn't mean they're not doing thier job...
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Beryllium Guy
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Posts: 5,654
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 15, 2021 22:13:09 GMT
Hi pattib , hi madbaker , Thank you very much for your assessment. Of course, there is no general rule, but as you have described, a basic attitude to it. And this can obviously vary from country to country (and is perhaps production-related?). Michel Germany Special says the following about the stamps "Marienkirche Lübeck": "Michel # 139 and 140 are mostly poorly perforated. The prices are valid with only small perforation flaws. Flawless stamps require at least 20% surcharge."This suggests that poor perforation is acceptable only in exceptional cases, but generally makes the German stamp worthless. This is also my knowledge for German stamps from German forums. But if most stamps in the USA have such a perforation, it is probably generally accepted. Perhaps there are other opinions on this? Thanks for your posts on this subject, Cara. I can offer an additional comment not really covered in the previous responses by Mark ( madbaker ) and Patti ( pattib ). Have a look at this thread: thestampforum.boards.net/thread/3159/line-perf-combThis thread explains the difference between comb and line perforations. So, your original observation is indeed about the production methods. These are two different methods of perforating used by various countries. Perhaps you will notice from one of the images in that thread that Germany has used the comb perforation method, which makes it possible to have perfect corners on each stamp if they are separated with some care. With line perforating, which is common on the US stamps shown in your earlier post, the vertical and horizontal perforations do not meet uniformly at the corners, which results in many short corners on the stamps. These are actually not damaged, but I would agree that some collectors (like me) would certainly find them less desirable. I hope this may help everyone's understanding a bit. P.S. I think that later tomorrow I will move the Comb & Line Perforations thread to a better location than the Newfoundland board, and I will probably move your posts into it, too, if you don't mind. That way, if you and others want to continue on the topic of perforations, which is quite a good subject, there will be a dedicated thread for it.
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madbaker
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Posts: 691
What I collect: (Mark) General worldwide collector (to 1975 or so) with a soft spot for Sweden and the rest of Scandinavia.
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Post by madbaker on Mar 16, 2021 0:19:16 GMT
Awesome! So glad for the explanation Chris, Beryllium Guy. Type of perforation machine explains the corners in Cara's scan, but even so, I tend not to stress over a nibble perf here and there. Would rather avoid them, but the average dealer stock where I'm from is pretty darn average. I took cara's comment to be in the spirit of 'how do US collectors judge what is collectable.' I get the sense that US collectors are much like Canadian collectors, or at least the Canadian collectors and dealers I've met at shows in Canada. I would say that 80% of the stamps in most Western Canadian dealer stocks are of the quality in Cara's scans. And not just North American stocks either. So I'd call it 'average' and 'acceptable to most' of the people where I live. But for sure, when given the option, I'll always go for the most perfectly centred, best colour, perfect perfs and superb cancellation every time. And I might even pay full catalogue value if forced. PS - I love looking at perfect stamps though! Don't get me wrong. It's a good reminder to head over to the Germany and European topics here to see what's 'average' from a European perspective.
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 16, 2021 9:00:24 GMT
Thanks for your response, Mark ( madbaker ). As it happens, I completely agree with you! And thanks again to cara , pattib , and Roberto ( ameis33 ) for continuing this interesting and worthwhile discussion. For better or worse, I am a bit of a perfectionist in all things, so I can tell you that I really like stamps that are made with comb perfs, because it is much easier to find a perfectly perforated example with all corners intact than it is with line-perfed stamps. But I accept that line-perfed stamps will more commonly have short corners that are not actually damaged, but merely a common tendency due to the production method. To me, that is the essential point and the distinction worth understanding: Comb-perfed stamps with short corners are actually damaged, as part of the stamp is torn off, whereas line-perfed stamps with short corners may not be damaged at all, but just have a short corner as a consequence of the random occurrence of how the perf paths crossed at the corners, so should not be treated as damaged at all. Just my two cents, for what it's worth.... other opinions welcome, of course! Stay stampy, all!
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salentin
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collecting Germany,where I live and about 20 more countries,half of them in Asia east of the Indus
Posts: 5,615
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Post by salentin on Mar 16, 2021 13:19:29 GMT
Cara, I think you misunderstood the Michel footnote. It does not mean the corners of that line-perforated issue,but the actual perforation as a whole. In my rather old Michel they refer to (Abb.13 auf der zweiten Umschlagsseite),what is this:
Such faults are common on the Marienkirche-set (as well as on the top-values of the Posthorn-set and others,like coil-stamps) My Marienkirche-set is more or less O.K. in this respect,but is not centered nicely,what in the US is a mayor criteria for stamp-quality.
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kgvistamps
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Posts: 201
What I collect: British Colonies - King George VI from all countries and King Edward VII & King George V from the West Indies.
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Post by kgvistamps on Mar 16, 2021 13:47:21 GMT
Moderator Note: This thread was originally started on the Newfoundland board, but I have moved it to the Stamp Collecting Basics board, as I think that it has greater applicability than just for Newfoundland issues. I am also moving over some posts from Whatcha Been Stamping? to add to the discussion.
I have become stuck on Newfoundland issue #183-199. There are a number of perfs for this issue and I don't mind reading the gauge.... but what am I looking for? The perfs listed for this issue are 13-1/2, line perf 14, perfs 13-3/4, 14, 14-1/4. There is also a line perf of 13.2 and a booklet perf of 13. How do I tell the difference between line perf 14 or just perf 14?? Talk about a confusing issue--try this one! Although the explanations of Line vs Comb Perf are very useful, I thought you might like to see some examples from the set you originally mentioned. The perf options from this set can be very difficult to find. I am still looking for a few of them, but I do have all three of the ones listed for the 3c value. So I copied them and put them into a display for you to see them. Hopefully it helps. The scans were done at 600 dpi; so If you save it to a PC, you can use a Photo Viewer program to enlarge the size and study the perforation corners if you want.
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kasvik
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Posts: 542
What I collect: Cancels mostly, especially Sweden Gävle and Lidingö, Switzerland Geneva, Germany Pforzheim
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Post by kasvik on Mar 16, 2021 14:54:44 GMT
Before there were such grievously misconceived production ideas as self-adhesives and water-soluble cancelations, there was line perforating. I see a thread: the unforgivable collectors’ production humbugs.
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cara
Member
Posts: 198
What I collect: Germany (FRG, GDR, Berlin); occupied Germany 1945-1949, Deutsches Reich 1872-1945, Switzerland, USA (newbie)
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Post by cara on Mar 16, 2021 15:40:00 GMT
First of all a "big big thank you" to Beryllium Guy for his explanations and moving the post to the correct board! And thank you to all collectors for their contributions. I'am a little bit surprised that my simple question started such a discussion. My intention was only to ask the USA-collectors, whether it is ok to pay money on ebay for stamps with short corners, because for stamps of West-Germany short corners are a "no go" and nobody would pay a penny for such stamps. But obviously it is a topic of interest. salentin I did not misunderstand Michel. I only wanted to bring an example how important good perforation for German collectors is and not only short corners. But as I suspected, it's the technology (comb and line perforations) which is a plausible explanation for me. So I can state for me that short corners are ok for US stamps because of the manufacturing process. And as ameis33 has written, wavy cancels are also normal on US-stamps. Thanks to all for the contributions, which helped me a lot. cara Small anecdote: When I registered years ago in a German stamp forum, there was just a discussion about the degree of preservation of mint stamps. And the opinion was that a fingerprint on the backside of the stamp means that the stamp is worthless. There I was also a little surprised.
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WERT
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Posts: 1,062
What I collect: Canada and Provinces
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Post by WERT on Apr 3, 2021 16:08:19 GMT
kgvistamps..Your Newfoundland Scott 187 stamps also come in these perforations...
13.2 x 13.2 14.0 x 14.0 13.75 x 13.75 13.5 x 13.5
Robert
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Ryan
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Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,720
What I collect: If I have a catalogue for it, I collect it. And I have many catalogues ....
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Post by Ryan on Apr 3, 2021 18:40:24 GMT
Small anecdote: When I registered years ago in a German stamp forum, there was just a discussion about the degree of preservation of mint stamps. And the opinion was that a fingerprint on the backside of the stamp means that the stamp is worthless. There I was also a little surprised. I think this is an example of the same sort of idealism you often see in stamp collecting. In the above case, it's equivalent to "any modern mint stamp that's hinged is worthless" (a fingerprint damages the gum, so although it's technically never been hinged, it would no longer be considered to be MNH, which should be a term reserved for stamp gum free from any damage, not only hinging damage). There are other examples of this, such as "any modern used stamp with a wavy cancel is worthless", "any modern first day cover which has been addressed is worthless", "any East Block CTO stamp is worthless", "any Sand Dune stamp is worthless", etc., etc. The Unitrade catalogue makes mention of the mechanics behind line & comb perforations but as far as I know, there isn't any mention anywhere of value differences between a "good" line perf stamp and one with an ugly corner. There are occasional mentions in the catalogue of similar value differences - one in particular is (or used to be!) with the OHMS-perforated official stamps. The perfin punch was built for the small-sized definitives which made up most of the perfin usage, and when the larger size of the high-value definitives was needed, well so what & who cares, we're just going to use the same tool built for the smaller stamps. This means the OHMS doesn't fit correctly on a large stamp, and the perfin then often runs into the edge of a stamp. If the perfin intersects with the stamp teeth (as on the right side of this example below, nabbed from a current eBay listing), the stamp has considerably less value. An OHMS perfin which doesn't intersect with the stamp teeth will cause a VF stamp to be valued 50% higher, back in the days of earlier catalogues, anyway. My most recent catalogue now simply says the perfin pins can't hit the stamp teeth - they no longer give a value difference. Drat & blast! I'd rather see a defined value difference instead of leaving it vague, because it's the vagueness that ends up with people deciding that stuff is "worthless". Grrrr ... Ryan
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philatelia
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Captain Jack - my best kiloware find ever!
Posts: 3,404
What I collect: Ireland, Japan, Scandy, USA, Venezuela, Vatican, Bermuda, Austria
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Post by philatelia on Apr 15, 2021 13:12:09 GMT
ok, a bit of Terri's weird sense of humor - I saw this cartoon of a stamp perforator machine and thought "hmmmm, well that's a one way to get yourself on a postage stamp"! (GROAN !). Before there were such grievously misconceived production ideas as self-adhesives and water-soluble cancelations, there was line perforating. I see a thread: the unforgivable collectors’ production humbugs.
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