cjd
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Post by cjd on Jun 20, 2015 3:06:47 GMT
This one is sort of interesting.   There are a number of different stories floating around. These are listed in Maury, but not much else. Not even in my 1946 Sanabria. There is consensus that they date from March, 1920. Maury says that they were required on airmail from 1920 to 1923. You do see them from time to time on French airmail covers, but since I don't spend a lot of time looking at covers, I can't add much more to that. A reference on SCF said that they were for the Paris-London airmail route. Note that there is also a "BUC" overprint from October 20, 1920, for the Buc-London and Buc-Brussels route. If they were obligatory, I don't understand why they are not listed in more catalogs. Here is an interesting twist that I found in American Philatelist Vol. 31-2 from 1919, the year before they were released:  This certainly seems to describe the stamps, other than the references to different colors for different values. The design and designer are certainly there. What else can we add to this? |
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AirmailEd
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Post by AirmailEd on Jul 5, 2015 18:36:28 GMT
There are a number of different stories floating around. These are listed in Maury, but not much else. Not even in my 1946 Sanabria. There is consensus that they date from March, 1920. Maury says that they were required on airmail from 1920 to 1923. You do see them from time to time on French airmail covers, but since I don't spend a lot of time looking at covers, I can't add much more to that. A reference on SCF said that they were for the Paris-London airmail route. Note that there is also a "BUC" overprint from October 20, 1920, for the Buc-London and Buc-Brussels route. If they were obligatory, I don't understand why they are not listed in more catalogs. ... What else can we add to this? Just realized I never pursued this. I did a Google image search and got one hit at The official Web site of the French Association of Cinderellas. According to it, this "stamp" was issued originally in 1919. It doesn't say why it was issued, or by whom. In 1920, it was overprinted thusly:  The machine translation says: "BUC (Yvelines) - October. Meeting Aerospace. "179 B - Thumbnail for Airmail bearing the image of Guynemer, overprinted in black on 3 lines. 35 x 21.5. Perforated." That looks like a catalog number. Maybe it is Maury. This looks like a label with no postal function. If it were an obligatory tax stamp, I think it would be listed in Scott and Sanabria, much like Turkey Scott RAC1-30 (Sanabria 1-30). Also, it probably would have a denomination on it. I suspect the writer of the American Philatelist piece learned that these labels were being printed and assumed they were the proposed tax stamps. As they say in journalism school, assume means "ass of you and me." |
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Post by jaysee on Jul 6, 2015 8:55:15 GMT
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cjd
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Post by cjd on Jul 6, 2015 16:26:28 GMT
Thanks to both of you. Here is a rough Google translation of part of the article, with a slight bit of refinement by me (albeit using my "menu French"). Any improvements to the translation are welcome. So, another source claiming use of this label to be obligatory. Using some of this additional information, I'll do a little more digging. Probably not today. Some color trials are shown at this site: trialcolor.blogspot.com/2013/01/1920-precurseur-guynemer.html |
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Jul 6, 2015 20:35:55 GMT
Great detective work by all. Google Translate  |
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AirmailEd
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Post by AirmailEd on Jul 7, 2015 20:00:22 GMT
Great detective work by all. Google Translate Thanks for the translation, Rod. That certainly sounds like more than a label. Assuming it was obligatory, I'm amazed that Sanabria did not include it. Sanabria was really inclusive. No one-off flight seems to have been too minor. Do we have a French philately expert on the board who can weigh in on this issue? BTW, I had never heard of Georges Guynemer. He was a WWI ace, killed in 1917. Wikipedia has an entry on him. |
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Jul 8, 2015 2:19:52 GMT
AirmailEdI share your opinion Ed, yet I had never seen that label before, in 15 years of Stamp Forums. Time to go hunting in French Blogs.
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cjd
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Post by cjd on Jul 8, 2015 3:57:30 GMT
You do all realize, I hope, that when we figure out the label, I plan on asking about that straightline PARIS "cancel."
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Jul 8, 2015 6:47:39 GMT
You do all realize, I hope, that when we figure out the label, I plan on asking about that straightline PARIS "cancel." I have found it, but not much help. Doesn't appear a transit mark. The font seems to be very similar to the one illustrated May not be French perhaps, or a cancellation. Perhaps try emailing the Webmaster. marcophilie.org/x/x-%7Dparis-i.html (scroll down left hand side to 1816) |
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AirmailEd
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Post by AirmailEd on Jul 8, 2015 19:33:59 GMT
You do all realize, I hope, that when we figure out the label, I plan on asking about that straightline PARIS "cancel." I have found it, but not much help. Doesn't appear a transit mark. The font seems to be very similar to the one illustrated May not be French perhaps, or a cancellation. Perhaps try emailing the Webmaster. marcophilie.org/x/x-%7Dparis-i.html (scroll down left hand side to 1816) This is getting out of hand! Does anyone have an idea of what these stamps are worth? Any sales of eBay? |
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Admin
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Post by Admin on Jul 8, 2015 19:38:41 GMT
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tomiseksj
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Post by tomiseksj on Jul 8, 2015 19:59:25 GMT
. . . Does anyone have an idea of what these stamps are worth? Any sales of eBay? listed on ebay as a BIN for $16.50. Several current and closed listings on Delcampe were in the 4 to 15 euro range. One with the Meeting DE BUC overprint is listed on timbro.fr for 22 euros. |
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AirmailEd
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Post by AirmailEd on Jul 8, 2015 23:41:38 GMT
Thanks, guys. I've been collecting airmail stamps for years, and had never heard of this stamp until this week. Now it has popped up in a Paradise Valley Stamp Co. auction. Pretty amazing.  The listing says: "1920 AIR POST FORERUNNERS, both stamps both mint and used, fine-very fine, cat,. Maury €105.00" Paradise Valley has a minimum of $45. Probably worthwhile if you want them both mint and used. I don't. In case anyone is interested, the lot is 1187 on Stamp Auction Network. |
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AirmailEd
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Post by AirmailEd on Jul 9, 2015 0:20:10 GMT
. . . Does anyone have an idea of what these stamps are worth? Any sales of eBay? listed on ebay as a BIN for $16.50. Several current and closed listings on Delcampe were in the 4 to 15 euro range. One with the Meeting DE BUC overprint is listed on timbro.fr for 22 euros. The headline on the eBay listing uses the word propaganda. "Airmail Labels, Propaganda: France: used 1919 Guyenemer vignette" In the description, the seller says: "Specialists alternatively consider this a propaganda vignette, or an airmail label. The design definitely states "Correspondance par avion", and it was routinely applied to early French airmail stamps. This example is used. [ Arc-en-Ciel 179A]" I tried three French translation sites for Arc-en-Ciel and got "rainbow" every time. Is that the name of a catalog? The cinderella site I found yesterday also uses 179A. The name of the site is actually Site de L'ARC-EN-CIEL. (I hate to sound so ignorant.) Admin, the completed listings on the French eBay site have quite a range. But I believe a patient bidder could get both for 10 euros. |
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Jul 9, 2015 4:34:31 GMT
You don't appear ignorant Ed, quite the opposite. I read "propaganda" as well, and thought it a tad discriminatory. It (the stamp) served duty, was cancelled on cover, what more does one want? If that were the case, every stamp issued had some propaganda attached to it. Do you have a link to your Arc en Ciel site please? I keep getting a Japanese Pop Group. Another instance of the Arc en Ciel Catalogue number  |
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Jul 9, 2015 4:38:34 GMT
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Jul 9, 2015 4:54:37 GMT
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Londonbus1
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Post by Londonbus1 on Jul 9, 2015 6:43:39 GMT
L'Arc en Ciel is the French Cinderella Society, a 'sister' organization to the UK's Cinderella Stamp Club. They hold joint meetings periodically both in France and the UK. They, and their members, have produced a number of books/catalogues about different aspects of Cinderella collecting. I have been after the excellent catalogue of French Exhibition Vignettes 1827-1954 or the later edition for some time but no luck thus far.
Londonbus1 |
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cjd
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Post by cjd on Jul 9, 2015 18:06:22 GMT
If we use rod's link: marcophilie.org/x/x-%7Dparis-i.htmlbut scroll down a little further, to 1877, that page says that "PARIS with number" was in use as a New Year's cancel until 1924.  The page has an example of the cancel on a Sage. (If it was ever there in the first place) the number would be cut off on my example, based on the orientation of the cancel on the face of the stamp. Maybe? Until something better comes along, that's what I'm leaning toward. By the way, this thread has blown up nicely... |
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AirmailEd
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Post by AirmailEd on Jul 9, 2015 20:06:51 GMT
Thanks to Steve for the link to Delcampe. There are many copies of these stamps for sale there. I expect I'll be forced to buy both.  Have to be complete, doncha know. Despite my earlier post, I expect to pay more than 10 euros for nice copies. If this was some type of government issue, I'm amazed at the design's crudity. The quality varies greatly on Delcampe. Guynemer always looks like he has two black eyes, and the woman in the background (Could that be Marianne? If so, she may not appreciate her depiction!) often appears to be wearing sunglasses. French airmails of the 1920s are much, much cleaner. I'm still confused by the catalog numbers (179 A and 179 B) that appear on the Arc-en-Ciel site. Are they from an Arc-en-Ciel catalog, or from Maury? cjd, in your initial post, you referred to a Maury description. Do you have a Maury catalog? If so, could you scan and post whatever information it has on these stamps? Rod, not sure if you found what you were looking for. Here is the Arc-en-Ciel link to the Guynemer stamps. |
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Jul 9, 2015 22:52:40 GMT
Nice find Collin, I completely missed that.
I think you indeed, have it.
Thumbs up.
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cjd
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Post by cjd on Jul 10, 2015 3:36:51 GMT
TSF...taking names and kicking dupa. (hat tip to the Poland collectors)  |
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cjd
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Post by cjd on Jul 21, 2015 23:09:33 GMT
I could not get a scan from Maury without breaking the binding, and readable photos proved tough, too. (There are five to six column inches, spread over two pages, plus two images.) They are included chronologically at 1920, but are not given numbers. Values are there, including on cover, and there are premiums for good centering (if I'm reading it right). I've upgraded the images slightly, but they still aren't great. It is the information that is important.   I'll type this into Google translate in a day or two, unless someone beats me to it and posts the results. I understand this explanation has been dropped from the current catalogues, so I think of this as preservation. I should note that there are an additional two paragraphs between these that seem to deal with overprints (the Buc that has been shown and perhaps one other, later one, not pictured), and I did not include them. This is not the full extent of the information, but it gets to the purpose. By the way, the catalogue lists usage as distinction du courrier with a small airplane symbol. (Now visible in the new image.) |
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cjd
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Post by cjd on Jul 22, 2015 4:19:26 GMT
Here is a fairly straight Google translation. I looked it over and thought about improvements, but my French it too weak to be useful. I think we need someone with some solid French skills to spruce it up.
It sure seems that they are saying it was mandatory from 1920 to 1923 on airmail. So, once again, I cannot fathom why it is so (relatively) ignored. Left out of Scott? Sure. Michel? Yeah, okay. But Yvert? Sanabria? Doesn't make sense to me.
Someone else who can do a better job with these translations, please chime in.
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Jul 22, 2015 4:29:26 GMT
I agree. have we ever tried to contact a Catalogue producer, for their response? If one can come up with a contact for Yvert or Michel, I'll give it a go. |
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cjd
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Post by cjd on Jul 22, 2015 13:09:43 GMT
I don't have an email contact for either of them. I have not attempted to correspond with them. I'd be interested to see if one or the other might respond...
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AirmailEd
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Post by AirmailEd on Jul 22, 2015 16:31:47 GMT
Here is a fairly straight Google translation. I looked it over and thought about improvements, but my French it too weak to be useful. I think we need someone with some solid French skills to spruce it up. It sure seems that they are saying it was mandatory from 1920 to 1923 on airmail. So, once again, I cannot fathom why it is so (relatively) ignored. Left out of Scott? Sure. Michel? Yeah, okay. But Yvert? Sanabria? Doesn't make sense to me. Someone else who can do a better job with these translations, please chime in. Yes, it sounds like Maury has no question that these stamps had a legitimate postal purpose. Sanabria seemed to list anything that had a whiff of airmail about it. Can't imagine how they missed it. Perhaps it is less clear-cut than Maury would have us believe. cjd, does Maury assign a number to this stamp? Edit: Re-reading your post, I see you said that Maury did not assign numbers. |
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AirmailEd
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Post by AirmailEd on Jul 22, 2015 18:08:15 GMT
Thanks, guys. I've been collecting airmail stamps for years, and had never heard of this stamp until this week. Now it has popped up in a Paradise Valley Stamp Co. auction. Pretty amazing. The listing says: "1920 AIR POST FORERUNNERS, both stamps both mint and used, fine-very fine, cat,. Maury €105.00" Paradise Valley has a minimum of $45. Probably worthwhile if you want them both mint and used. I don't. In case anyone is interested, the lot is 1187 on Stamp Auction Network. These did not sell. Still available if anyone is interested. |
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tomiseksj
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Post by tomiseksj on Jul 22, 2015 19:37:39 GMT
If one can come up with a contact for Yvert or Michel, I'll give it a go. This might get you in the ballpark: www.briefmarken.de/kontakt |
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Jul 23, 2015 0:29:59 GMT
If one can come up with a contact for Yvert or Michel, I'll give it a go. This might get you in the ballpark: www.briefmarken.de/kontaktThanks Steve. Email forwarded. |
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