USA to Canada cross border stampless 1835

Letter contents and back...



 

Rod, I'm still unsure of the postal rates and customs of this period, though yes it is by distance. I think the 25 would be 25¢ US from Washington to Lewiston NY. The other two fees, 1/3 and 2/- would be to get across the border and to the destination in Brantford. I think since there is no PAID on the cover then the recipient would be expected to pickup the tab.
The distance between Queenston and Brantford, now, to drive according to the inter web is about 70.21 miles (113km). I don't have the rates handy but perhaps someone here has this intel.

I'm not an expert in the Stampless Era but have some experience. It looks like there were at least two charges. The red 25 (red means prepaid) possibly 25 cents to the Canadian border where the 1/3 was added in black (Unpaid) and it would be 1s 3d for the Canada Post Office charge from the border to the destination.

Now the 3rd 2/- I'm not sure of but looks to be a Canadian charge.

jamesw, Cy is the Canadian Currency. Canada actually had their own pence currency that was worth a bit less than the British Currency.

What you have there are the rates for letters going from Canada to the United States. Not sure if the charges were the same for incoming mail. I think they may be different. On letters coming from England, there is commonly a Canadian charge of 1s/4d Cy from the ship in Quebec to the destination in Canada.

Thanks for the updates guys. Appreciate you straightening me out on the Cy Jimjung. That makes sense. I think the chart I found is within Canada so it would still be applicable since it is referring to the postal rate from Queenston to Brantford. But since it was about 70 miles (assuming todays distance will be about the same as 180 years ago, different route not with standing) it still doesn't seem to indicate that the 7 1/2d Cy. is covered on the cover.
It could be, and probably is, that I'm reading the postal rate wrong there.
I agree with jimjung that the 25¢ was prepaid in the US, as confirmed with the red ink (thanks jim!).



What if we remove the 25, what do we get? What looks like an equation of some kind. That was written by the same person. Same ink!

 

Looks like the postmaster in Queenston was working out what the rate should be. What d'yall think?

And thanks for the map of Washington Ryan. that will be going on this items album page!

I thought so too Rod, but what is the loop and line in the middle mean? It looks like a 9. And I think that was all written by the same person, so I'm thinking there's more here than meets the eye.

Cheers Rod. This is an area of Canadian postal history I'm just starting to delve into. The rates are a mystery to me, and finding literature on the subject has been difficult. But I'm looking!
Just found some articles in BNA Topics about this so I'm downloading those. It's a learning process to be sure!

Just a matter of conjecture, it almost seems like the 25 cents was crossed out. The red 25 cents would indicate that the item was pre-paid. By striking it out in black, it would indicate that it had in fact not been prepaid, thereby requiring the receiver to pay for it in Canadian currency.

The 25c was prepaid by the sender to the US PO. The 25c gets the letter to the border crossing between the US and Canada. At the border, the US Payment is always struck out so that it can't be mistaken as payment from the border to the destination. In a sense the payment amount was returned to zero prepaid and then other amount(s) added at the border crossing by the Canada PO for payment due from the border to the destination.

Here is a simpler example. The scrawl in the lower right is 4 1/2d prepayment made in Montreal. The Montreal cds and PAID marking applied in Montreal. At the border, the paid was crossed out and the 10 applied in the upper right for the US Payment of 10c due in black. Hope this clarifies.

Notice how the price went down from 1835 to 1848. Postage was expensive early on in Canada and the US. Below is a scan of Postage Rates from 1849. If it was almost a shilling for 300 miles in 1849, it was 2 1/2 times that in 1835 if you go by the USA rate difference of 10c in 1848 and 25c in 1835.

jamesw, I got this chart from a Pence Era book that describes the rates before the Pence period stamps (1851-1859) and then into the Pence Period. So nothing from 1835. I'll have to see if I can find something.

I don't believe that the red ink used to apply the manuscript U.S. over 400 mile zone rate of 25 cents that was in effect from 1816 to 1845 indicates that the postage had been paid.

The American Stampless Cover Catalog (Vol I) states: "Absence of the words "PAID" or "FREE" indicated that the postage was to be collected from the addressee upon delivery.

In that case, the cy equivalent of the 25 cents due for the U.S. leg of the journey would be additive to the Canadian rate in effect at the time.

12 Pence = sh

I have a small piece of this puzzle solved as I was listening to a presentation a couple of weeks ago. The speaker was saying how unpaid amounts were doubled. I thought of this cover and said to myself, "The cover was unpaid from the border to the destination."

If you look at the scrawl, we have 1/3d at the top. The distance of 70 miles should be 7 1/2d as per you post at top of this thread. If you double this, you get 15d or 1/3d. The 25c is paid to the border while the unpaid penalty is double the charge from the border to Brantford.

Now the last piece of the 2/- I am still not sure of. But I do know that there could be a border fee to cross the river at Queenston, possibly for a ferry. This may be 2d for that charge.

I just looked up the Queenston bridge and it was built in 1851 so it would've been a ferry boat.