salmantino
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What I collect: Specialised UK and overprints, Ireland, Netherlands, Spanish permanent stamps.
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Post by salmantino on Jan 17, 2024 19:31:05 GMT
The seller refers to a listing from the Edifil specialised catalogue (nr. 29hcc) from a different overprinting in black. There might be more information, including the numbers known, in the specialised catalogue (Claret series vol. II, or Bronze series vol. III).
The overprint has similar letters, but is much cleaner.
Catalogue value according to seller € 475 (NHM).
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renden
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What I collect: Canada-USA-France-Lithuania-Austria--Germany-Mauritius-French Colonies in Africa
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Post by renden on Jan 17, 2024 20:30:34 GMT
The seller refers to a listing from the Edifil specialised catalogue (nr. 29hcc) from a different overprinting in black. There might be more information, including the numbers known, in the specialised catalogue (Claret series vol. II, or Bronze series vol. III). The overprint has similar letters, but is much cleaner. Catalogue value according to seller € 475 (NHM). Salmantino,I thought you would venture (give us) your " diagnosis" of this unusual expensive Ebay offer - Mine is easy=do not touch !... I compared the 2 non issued (catalog) stamps and was impressed by the + in black, on each overprint....or surcharge......a printing press would not do an unprofessional job like that With much respect, a Canadian who did a search on this René
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salmantino
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Posts: 266
What I collect: Specialised UK and overprints, Ireland, Netherlands, Spanish permanent stamps.
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Post by salmantino on Jan 17, 2024 20:51:55 GMT
renden , I am not a specialist collector of Spain. I, only, can observe the striking differences between the overprint on millersville 's stamp and that depicted in my own 2023 Edifil Cátalogo Unificado, or on the one offered on Ebay. The seller on Ebay is an established stamp dealer from Barcelona. Neither his listings on Ebay, nor his listings on his own website give me a reason to doubt the stamp he has on offer. However, a stamp with an obscure overprint that he claims is listed by Edifil with a catalogue value of € 475, even at the offered price half the catalogue value shouts 'Can you provide a recent certificate?' As for the stamp posted by millersville, I think there is good reason to doubt the genuiness of that overprint. Again, I am not an expert. Nor do I have one of these specialised Edifil catalogues. If millersville does not come to the same conclusion - which is understandable -, there is the posibility to have it expertised by one of the established Spanish expertisers. I think the colour of the overprint itself is not a reason to disqualify the stamp as genuine but the very poor quality, likely, is.
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millersville
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What I collect: World-Wide Revenue
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Post by millersville on Jan 18, 2024 4:28:10 GMT
I also agree with salmantino and as a novice, appreciate the lesson. My inclination is to either: A) destroy the stamp rather than let it fall into the hands of an unsuspecting buyer or B) sell it as a forgery for a nominal price for a collector of such things. Thoughts?
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cursus
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Posts: 2,011
What I collect: Catalan Cinderellas. Used Switzerland, UK, Scandinavia, Germany & Austria. Postal History of Barcelona & Estonia. Catalonia pictorial postmarks.
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Post by cursus on Jan 18, 2024 5:20:12 GMT
I'm neither a collector nor a specialist on Spanish stamps. But, I happen to have an "Edifil especializado"(1995) catalog on my library. It lists a black overprint variety on the blue 50 cents (Canarias # 29hcc) with a very high quotation (75000 pta = 625 €) for the time. The text looks very much like the one on the stamp for sale and it's different from that of our friend. I guess, it's a forgery. I'm Sorry!
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rod222
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Jan 18, 2024 7:35:25 GMT
I also agree with salmantino and as a novice, appreciate the lesson. My inclination is to either: A) destroy the stamp rather than let it fall into the hands of an unsuspecting buyer or B) sell it as a forgery for a nominal price for a collector of such things. Thoughts? Opinion Write on the back "Faux Opt" Place in your collection, as an example of a Forgery Forgery ID is a pertinent and important facet of philately.
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salmantino
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Posts: 266
What I collect: Specialised UK and overprints, Ireland, Netherlands, Spanish permanent stamps.
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Post by salmantino on Jan 18, 2024 10:26:04 GMT
I also agree with salmantino and as a novice, appreciate the lesson. My inclination is to either: A) destroy the stamp rather than let it fall into the hands of an unsuspecting buyer or B) sell it as a forgery for a nominal price for a collector of such things. Thoughts? Assuming you do not want to keep it: It appears to be a forgery. But I wonder if that was what people thought when the black overprint first surfaced. Destroying it would deny specialists to assess whether it is a forgery or an unknown overprint such as a proof. Alternatively, if it is confirmed as a forgery (as it appears to be), destroying it would deny the collecting community the opportunity to use it as a reference of what they should look out for. If confirmed a forgery, it should, clearly and indelibly, be marked as such. If so, I do not see the harm in selling it as a forgery. As long as it is not confirmed, I can also understand that it is sold with the caveat it, likely, is a forgery. Marking it as a possible forgery is an option. I would hesitate to do so indelibly if there is any reasonable doubt.
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Post by gstamps on Jan 18, 2024 11:24:09 GMT
salmantino, I totally agree with your post. I keep the German fakes (my area of interest) as a reference. I sold the Fournier fakes (French colonies) - there are also collectors of fakes. I managed to sell these fakes (although I had other offers) to the owner of the website that describes these Portuguese fakes: I don't like to destroy any type of stamp (genuine or fake).. a collector can always be found who wants them.
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Post by gstamps on Jan 18, 2024 15:03:24 GMT
I did not find in the catalog Scott the 5c stamp and no information about the use of half of Scott # 647. I saw that the catalogs mention the use of cut stamps - I guess when it was legal. Is this also the case here?
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rednaxela
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Posts: 201
What I collect: Germany in all its facets since 1871 (especially German Reich used including postal statinoneries, used), USSR, Austria, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, Denmark, France. I design all album pages for my collection myself and partly make them available to the general public for use.
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Post by rednaxela on Jan 18, 2024 15:53:42 GMT
I did not find in the catalog Scott the 5c stamp and no information about the use of half of Scott # 647. I saw that the catalogs mention the use of cut stamps - I guess when it was legal. Is this also the case here? At least a hint for the 5 cent stamp: it is a cinderella from Spanish Civil War and listed in colnect.
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Post by gstamps on Jan 18, 2024 16:33:13 GMT
rednaxela, thank you, but by accessing your link this is what I got
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jan 18, 2024 16:43:32 GMT
Thanks to all for the great responses to the request for help from Chris ( millersville )! There's quite a lot of good info there. Chris, as you and I discussed privately yesterday, you have some familiarity with APS (American Philatelic Society) resources for expertizing. Did you know that the APS also maintains a reference collection of both genuine and forged examples of stamps? My suggestion is that rather than destroy the highly suspect overprinted stamp, you should offer to donate it to the APS collection as a forgery. That way, it will still have some philatelic value, but it should never end up being sold as genuine to an unsuspecting collector. Just a thought!
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rednaxela
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Posts: 201
What I collect: Germany in all its facets since 1871 (especially German Reich used including postal statinoneries, used), USSR, Austria, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, Denmark, France. I design all album pages for my collection myself and partly make them available to the general public for use.
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Post by rednaxela on Jan 18, 2024 16:46:10 GMT
rednaxela , thank you, but by accessing your link this is what I got No idea why. Let's try it with a screenshot:
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salmantino
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Posts: 266
What I collect: Specialised UK and overprints, Ireland, Netherlands, Spanish permanent stamps.
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Post by salmantino on Jan 18, 2024 17:20:00 GMT
gstamps It never was legal ... BUT .... A lot of information here. It is in Spanish. www.rahf.es/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Academvs12_art%C3%ADculo-JESUS-SITJA-menos-pesado.pdf... it happened. Page 28 is most relevant for you. At top left, it mentions the use of bisected stamps became widespread during the civil war. This happened because the war caused scarcity of stamps, but also with the intend to sell those items in other countries at a later time. At right there is a warning that many forgeries exist. It is important to check the stamp is tied to a piece. Also, it is importrant the tariff is correct. As far as I can find out, the rate for local delivery was 15 céntimos from 1 August 1931 until 31 March 1937. Your piece shows a franking of ½ x 30 céntimos = 15 céntimos. The cancel appears to be for 20 or 28 March 1937. That would be at the very end of the timeframe. I think Sévilla was firmly in the hands of the military at the time and the stamp was issued by the 'Estado Español.' I think you are three for three.
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rod222
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Jan 18, 2024 22:45:10 GMT
I did not find in the catalog Scott the 5c stamp and no information about the use of half of Scott # 647. I saw that the catalogs mention the use of cut stamps - I guess when it was legal. Is this also the case here? gstamps "cut stamps" = Bisects.
The "Pro Sevilla" obligatory charity stamp, is a consistant date with the covers I have seen of 1937 (Sevilla to Stuttgart)also Seville to Paris 24th December 1937
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salmantino
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Posts: 266
What I collect: Specialised UK and overprints, Ireland, Netherlands, Spanish permanent stamps.
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Post by salmantino on Jan 18, 2024 23:13:20 GMT
rod222, If you look at pages 31 and 32 of the PDF to which I provide a link, you will see that the reference to 'cut stamps' uses a correct phrasing. A bisect is a stamp cut in two (bi) parts. Examples are shown of trisects.
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millersville
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What I collect: World-Wide Revenue
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Post by millersville on Jan 19, 2024 1:34:40 GMT
Beryllium Guy, a wonderful idea! I'll reach out to the AFRL and see if it is of interest. Thank you as well, salmantino . Chris
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Post by gstamps on Jan 19, 2024 7:09:59 GMT
rod222, salmantino, thank you for the website, where there is also a catalog for bisecte stamps. I understood that during the Spanish Civil War the use of bi/tri sect stamps was frequent. I think it is a less interesting field for collectors and I tried to find out more information with the search criteria "sello Isabela, Edifil 857, bisectado" Unfortunately, I found only two results (Isabela 30c bisect in 1939 - I think it's a forgery - according to your statement that 15c was valid until 1937) I have several stamps/vignettes from this period and I have not been interested in them until now. Is there anything interesting?
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Jan 19, 2024 7:22:03 GMT
rod222 , salmantino , thank you for the website, where there is also a catalog for bisecte stamps. Is there anything interesting? My word! YES very interesting ! This discipline is possibly the most difficult in all Philately (Along with Turkish Postmarks) You need very rare and expensive catalogues I collect them, but really I only meddle, as they are difficult to source. You have a fine starter collection. (lots of Pro Sevilla, the boxed frame cancel is a Seville Registration strike) cursus should be able to identify the CATALUNYA examples This interloper is Spain Postage Stamp 1938 Scott 599 45c ("Republic" with Phrygian Cap)
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salmantino
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Posts: 266
What I collect: Specialised UK and overprints, Ireland, Netherlands, Spanish permanent stamps.
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Post by salmantino on Jan 19, 2024 8:05:19 GMT
gstamps Are we talking the same stamp you posted above? That is postmarked 20 or 28 MAR 19 37, i.e., within the timeframe that 15 céntimos prepaid the carriage of local mail. The '9' you see in the cancellation is not that of the year but of the hour. The dark and pale patches of the cancel, actually, are the only reason I dare not say it is genuine. But I am no expert. Since it is the correct stamp for that part of Spain, it is an existing tariff for the bisect, and the cancel ties it to a piece, I am tempted to say '99.9% sure it is genuine.' As the study I posted a link to states: during the civil war, bisecting stamps became a cottage industry. (Okay, some artistic freedom in that translation.) Note also, that the study ends at 1936. Reading it gave me the impression the author used that as a cut-off date, because the bisecting became so frequent during the civil war.
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Jan 19, 2024 12:43:53 GMT
djcmh 1938 Air Nacional Stamp Habilitacion tipografica Emision Privada 3 Values 15c 30c 1 Peseta blue and orange
Asturias Liberada Agradecica a Franco Ariba Espana Correo
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salmantino
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Posts: 266
What I collect: Specialised UK and overprints, Ireland, Netherlands, Spanish permanent stamps.
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Post by salmantino on Jan 19, 2024 13:01:14 GMT
rod222 Small typos: And there also is AEREO to the right.
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