seegod1
Member 
Mostly lurking these days, but enjoying everyone's input!
Posts: 162 
What I collect: Canada, Cats, Soccer, Religion, Royalty, Titanic, Stamps on Stamps, Number Ones
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Post by seegod1 on Jun 7, 2022 11:18:39 GMT
Hey bobstew617 , agreed. I won't keep selvedge either unless there is actually something on it or it helps demonstrate to others why it's listed in my catalogue as an Upper Left Plate Block or whatever. All others get removed. |
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Post by philatelia on Jun 7, 2022 12:00:31 GMT
Some points to consider regarding selvage;- Have you ever seen the premiums charged for classics with selvage - even unmarked? - It is much easier to find and illustrate perforation types when there are pairs or attached selvage. (example - 1950s USA liberty series large and small holes) - Gums sometimes extend over all the selvage, sometimes not. That can be useful in detecting regummed stamps or forgeries. - Selvage, of course, contains various markings. Removing those is particularly unwise. - Every side of a stamp with attached selvage has, of course, pristine perforations - How about gutter pairs? Traffic lights? Plate numbers? Aussie koalas? Israeli and other tabs (thanks brightonpete ! That’s an important one for this list! ) - Selvage copies often have cleaner, unfinger-printed gum, probably because people handled the stamp by the selvage. I always use the tongs on the selvage myself. - Obviously it is MUCH easier to plate a copy with selvage. - Long sets with matching selvage looks wicked cool! - Removing portions of stamps to fit some preprinted album page has been a philatelic pox since the beginning. This is especially true for imperforate classics that have been trimmed (cringe!) to squash them into an old fashioned album.  If you’ve ever purchased a VERY old collection, you know what I mean. - Selvage copies are more scarce, so collections with many selvage examples are much more interesting and probably more valuable. - You risk damaging the stamp when you remove the selvage. - Philatelic Golden Rule - First Do NO Harm Just want to add - many of these reasons to keep selvage are referring to older material. Most modern are issued in such huge quantities that removing selvage isn’t such a big deal.
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brightonpete
Departed
Rest in Peace
On a hike at Goodrich-Loomis
Posts: 5,110 
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Post by brightonpete on Jun 7, 2022 12:26:32 GMT
More selvedge - Israeli TABS. Remove those and you can no longer buy a new car!
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Post by gstamps on Jun 7, 2022 14:53:05 GMT
Block of 8 stamps Mi 319 with selvedge on which is inscribed HAN number (Hausauftragnummer = house order number) H 5888.23 The HAN number must be complete and a pair of stamps must be kept when necessary. A prize is awarded over the value of the normal stamp.  |
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salentin
Member
collecting Germany,where I live and about 20 more countries,half of them in Asia east of the Indus
Posts: 5,172
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Post by salentin on Jun 7, 2022 15:52:14 GMT
Interesting cancels: 19.1.23 (Jan.19th,1923)
The stamp was issued on 28.10.23 (Oct.28th,1923) !
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Post by philatelia on Jun 7, 2022 16:43:35 GMT
Very cool! I’ve seen the term “HAN” number in auction descriptions, but hadn’t a clue what that meant. I love learning something new, and I do almost everyday here in The Stamp Forum. Thanks for sharing.
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Post by gstamps on Jun 7, 2022 17:17:13 GMT
salentin - very good. I was curious if anyone noticed. I asked a lot of questions about the cancellation date. The conclusion is that the cancellation is genuine (type II - the star's position relative to Mannheim - in operation since July 1923) and is a wrong date setting (month 1 instead of 11). They recommended me to send the block to the cancellation expertise, but I didn't even find any value in Michel for this HAN (didn't they appear on sale?) I guess it's very rare, but that doesn't mean it's valuable. philatelia - I'm trying to share my knowledge as a beginner collector. I've received a lot of help so far from advanced collectors.
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ameis33
Member
What's in a name? That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet
Posts: 443
What I collect: Poland and Italy Republic
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Post by ameis33 on Jun 7, 2022 20:21:25 GMT
Once upon a long ago, letters were used to be closed with wax seals on the back. But if you have in your hand a stamp with attached the selvedge, why not to use it instead?  |
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tobben63
Member
Stamp eat sleep repeat
Posts: 1,782
What I collect: I collect to much, world wide!
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Post by tobben63 on Jun 7, 2022 20:48:44 GMT
If anyone collect selvedge I have some laying around ...........   |
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Post by gstamps on Jun 8, 2022 4:20:42 GMT
Nobody just collects selvedge.
I guess you keep them for use as a hinge.
I'm kidding, of course.
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salentin
Member
collecting Germany,where I live and about 20 more countries,half of them in Asia east of the Indus
Posts: 5,172
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Post by salentin on Jun 8, 2022 5:00:26 GMT
I think the block needs an expert´s report.
The very likely outcome would be,that it has a cancel-forgery. (The cancel might be genuine,but was applied at a later time)
As a mint pair with HAN H5888.23 is not rare,in the range of € 2.- to 4.-,cancel-forgeries are invited.
Michel gives no price for used pairs,what is likely due to the fact,that there are no genuine ones known.
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Post by paul1 on Jun 8, 2022 7:46:54 GMT
hi gstamps - your comment about selvedge being used as a hinge substitute has much truth. Obviously it wasn't a universal habit to do so, and proper purpose made hinges are found more commonly but, on many of the old 'youngsters' albums put together during the 40s/50s/60s, selvedge material was definitely resorted to in place of the real thing.
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angore
Member
Posts: 4,516
What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on Jun 8, 2022 9:47:56 GMT
It is used a tape as well.  |
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dorincard
Member
Posts: 1,030
What I collect: My focus is on Wild Mammals on maximum cards. Occasionally, I get or create maximum cards with other animals, or any other topic.
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Post by dorincard on Jun 8, 2022 15:19:46 GMT
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Post by gstamps on Jun 8, 2022 18:32:52 GMT
salentin I don't know German but I registered on a German site where I had the chance to receive a more accurate assessment. I received this answer from "stampsx" : „diese beiden Stempelabschläge sind echt und zeitgerecht. Der Postbeamte hatte die Monatszahl falsch eingestellt. Kam damals öfters vor. (these two postmarks are genuine and timely. The postman had set the month incorrectly Happened a lot back then.” It is obvious that on 19.11 (November 19) I don't think this stamp was used anymore because the postage was 2-5 billion marks (100 stamps minimum ??) I think the date should have been 9.11 (November 9) when the postage was 0.2 billion and the use of the stamp is correct (10 stamps) I asked for advice on the cost of expertise when Michel is not listed the value. I received the following answer: “If there are still no ratings in the Michel, the examiners decide on the value of the stamps based on the existing/estimated number of HAN stamps they know, as I assume.” If anyone wants to buy the block, I will contact Infla Berlin to find out what the value estimate is (I'm kidding of course)
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Post by paul1 on Jun 8, 2022 20:47:01 GMT
....... and here is another selvedge - the Maltese 1965 1d. from Harrison - you get extra colour value here, but I don't have any others from this set with wings, so don't know if this overlap was commonplace or not.  |
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salentin
Member
collecting Germany,where I live and about 20 more countries,half of them in Asia east of the Indus
Posts: 5,172
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Post by salentin on Jun 9, 2022 12:14:20 GMT
gstampsno doubt,it could be possible,that the date was set incorrectly. (it was so for sure,if it was applied to order,or as a forgery !)
But as there are so many "irregular" cancelletions on infla-stamps,this is not likely. You could ask INFLA-Berlin,what the costs for an examination would be,if genuine and if not. Perhaps they have in their archive other blocks with the same cancels. Anyway INFLA-Berlin is the institution with the best knowledge.
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Post by gstamps on Jun 10, 2022 10:51:05 GMT
salentin-Thanks for the tips. I am 99% sure that the cancellation is genuine and the date is set incorrectly. My arguments are: -in the database is not a counterfeit Mannheim 1 s type II cancel - the obliteration ink has the same oily appearance on the back of the block with the ink used at that time - what is the purpose of forging an obliteration with a date when neither the stamp nor the obliteration device existed. I am not fluent in German and I do not have any budget necessary for the block's expertise; For these reasons, I did not start a discussion with Infla Berlin.  Two more types of selvedge that are worth more than the value of the stamps. You can find them for stamp issues in the French occupation zone of Germany (Baden, Rhineland-Palatinate and Wurttemberg) - gezähnten Feldern in Markengrosse (perforated fields in stamp size) - Eckrandstücke mit Komplettem Druvckdatum.( Corner margin pieces with complete printing date). Notice the different paper and gum of these stamps (I will post in one of the threads for these areas - if any - the different varieties of paper and gum)  
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salentin
Member
collecting Germany,where I live and about 20 more countries,half of them in Asia east of the Indus
Posts: 5,172
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Post by salentin on Jun 15, 2022 11:59:54 GMT
In this case a stamp without the selvage is not much more than half the stamp:
Issued Nov.11th,2010.
There are a few more stamps of Germany,where the design reaches into the selvage. But this one is by far the most extreme case.
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tomiseksj
Moderator 
Woodbridge, Virginia, USA
Posts: 6,053
What I collect: Worldwide stamps/covers, Cinderellas, Ohio Prepaid Sales Tax Receipts, U.S. WWII Ration ephemera
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Post by tomiseksj on Jun 15, 2022 15:54:00 GMT
Gives new meaning to the phrase "better half."
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salentin
Member
collecting Germany,where I live and about 20 more countries,half of them in Asia east of the Indus
Posts: 5,172
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Post by salentin on Jun 17, 2022 12:15:30 GMT
Another selvage,without the stamp is not complete. Issued Feb.11th,2016.
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Post by dgdecker on Jun 17, 2022 15:25:43 GMT
Some points to consider regarding selvage;- Have you ever seen the premiums charged for classics with selvage - even unmarked? - It is much easier to find and illustrate perforation types when there are pairs or attached selvage. (example - 1950s USA liberty series large and small holes) - Gums sometimes extend over all the selvage, sometimes not. That can be useful in detecting regummed stamps or forgeries. - Selvage, of course, contains various markings. Removing those is particularly unwise. - Every side of a stamp with attached selvage has, of course, pristine perforations - How about gutter pairs? Traffic lights? Plate numbers? Aussie koalas? Israeli and other tabs (thanks brightonpete ! That’s an important one for this list! ) - Selvage copies often have cleaner, unfinger-printed gum, probably because people handled the stamp by the selvage. I always use the tongs on the selvage myself. - Obviously it is MUCH easier to plate a copy with selvage. - Long sets with matching selvage looks wicked cool! - Removing portions of stamps to fit some preprinted album page has been a philatelic pox since the beginning. This is especially true for imperforate classics that have been trimmed (cringe!) to squash them into an old fashioned album. If you’ve ever purchased a VERY old collection, you know what I mean. - Selvage copies are more scarce, so collections with many selvage examples are much more interesting and probably more valuable. - You risk damaging the stamp when you remove the selvage. - Philatelic Golden Rule - First Do NO Harm Just want to add - many of these reasons to keep selvage are referring to older material. Most modern are issued in such huge quantities that removing selvage isn’t such a big deal. I do not actively search out items with selvage. I will keep any from the « classical » era. Nothing modern. I try to display along with regular collection. David |
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brightonpete
Departed
Rest in Peace
On a hike at Goodrich-Loomis
Posts: 5,110
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Post by brightonpete on Jun 17, 2022 18:36:40 GMT
Nothing modern? This set of stamps arrived like so...
There's no way I could tear that off! If it was blank, perhaps. But with, you can see which part of the sheet it came from.
To each their own...
Peter
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Post by clivel on Jun 18, 2022 0:13:47 GMT
As already mentioned elsewhere in this thread, selvedge in the form of tabs on Israeli stamps can make an enormous difference to the catalogue value. In 1948 Israel issued its first set of stamps. But as these were printed prior to the country name being formalized they were simply inscribed "Doar Ivri" (Hebrew Post) in both Hebrew and Arabic . The design of the stamps featured an ancient Hebrew coin. However, as the archaic Hebrew script on the coins would be unintelligible to the majority of the public, the bottom selvedge was used for a tab containing a modern Hebrew transcription along with historical details of each coin. This is where the practice of including tabs on Israeli stamps originated. The 5m denomination above catalogues (Bale 2016) MNH without a tab at US$0.25, and with a tab at US$8.00 - a significant difference. Some Israeli stamps such as this 1950 Negev Camel have a secondary tab in the form of blank selvedge.
If the secondary tab is missing then the stamp is described as having a half-tab, which although still valued at more than a stamp with no tabs, it is worth considerably less than a stamp with full-tabs.
This is something to be particularly careful of when buying Israeli stamps, especially online, as I regularly see half-tabbed stamps described as full-tabbed with prices to match. Clive
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ameis33
Member
What's in a name? That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet
Posts: 443
What I collect: Poland and Italy Republic
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Post by ameis33 on Jun 18, 2022 10:36:07 GMT
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brightonpete
Departed
Rest in Peace
On a hike at Goodrich-Loomis
Posts: 5,110
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Post by brightonpete on Jun 18, 2022 15:01:30 GMT
Wow, ameis33 that's a lot of selvedge! Too bad some is off-centred from the stamp. I'd mount them as per usual, but that's an awful lot of mounts you'd need, and limited what you can mount per page! Interesting though...
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ameis33
Member
What's in a name? That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet
Posts: 443
What I collect: Poland and Italy Republic
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Post by ameis33 on Jun 18, 2022 16:53:30 GMT
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Post by gstamps on Jun 18, 2022 18:18:33 GMT
My opinion only applies to German stamps. Plus the value mentioned in the Michel catalog for selvedge stamps with different markings is due to the interest of collectors, working groups, experts who study these stamps (platting, colors, who and when printed them and last but not least the identification of plate flaws- and their differences from print errors) I suspect that this interest in selvedge is due to the fact that no whole sheets of stamps have been kept or have been issued for a long period of time, with the appearance of differences in color, paper, plates, etc. With few exceptions, after 1945, the mention of these types of selvedge stamps no longer appears in the catalog. Why? There is no longer the interest of collectors, study groups, experts. So apparently keeping stamps with selvedge no longer has any motivation (neither informational, nor valuable) I have these semi-sheets (1963-1972, German Democratic Republic, Walter Ulbricht) that I wanted to dismantle and keep the top selvedge listed in the catalog - one of the few exceptions after 1945  I received advice from an experienced collector to keep them that way because there is a study group that deals with identifying plate flaws as opposed to print errors. All the plate flaws in Michel also mentioned the field in the sheet in which they appear and then it is easier to find them if I keep them whole |
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salentin
Member
collecting Germany,where I live and about 20 more countries,half of them in Asia east of the Indus
Posts: 5,172
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Post by salentin on Jun 19, 2022 13:28:37 GMT
ameis33: No the four fields would be called "stamp-sized labels". ("Zierfeld" by Michel)
 Issued Aug.7th,2014
Issued May7th,2015
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ameis33
Member
What's in a name? That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet
Posts: 443
What I collect: Poland and Italy Republic
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Post by ameis33 on Jun 19, 2022 17:24:39 GMT
Hello salentin . "Stamp-sized lables" right... In effect, "quarters" or "angular block of five" is the literal translation from their italian name... The Sassone catalog lists them all. Angular blocks are tipical from the Italy Republic period. The last one was printed in 1972 (Don Orione), for a total of 75 blocks printed, plus the stamps for postage parcels (the ones divided in two sides). I should have the latest 20 circa (the cheapest ones) |
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If you’ve ever purchased a VERY old collection, you know what I mean.
