khj
Member
Posts: 1,524
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Post by khj on Oct 4, 2020 3:12:08 GMT
renden , I completely agree that it doesn't work well. Scott does have a color guide, but it's ridiculously expensive, and doesn't cover nearly enough color shades. I don't rely on color charts. I've learned that having a single stamp and trying to use the color chart to identify which shade I have is a hair-pulling experience. I find it easier to wait to ID color shades after I get multiple copies of a stamp. Then, side-by-side with same stamp design, the color shades are a lot more obvious. I then rely on "relative" color definitions instead of absolute definitions. It's not like the printer in 1870 looked up Wikipedia and color-matched their ink. I've seen 2 different stamps that both have orange and yellow printings, according to the catalog. The "yellow color" for one of the stamps is actually the "orange color" for the other stamp. In other words, 2 stamps with 2 colors, but put them all side-by-side and you see 3 different color shades: orange, yellow-orange, yellow. But depending on the stamp, that "yellow-orange" may be called orange or it may be called yellow in the catalog listings. If the catalog isn't consistent in their color definitions, then the expensive color guide is of very limited use.
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,908
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Oct 4, 2020 9:07:28 GMT
Many thanks to all those who have been contributing to this thread: daniel, renden, Londonbus1, khj, gmot, ajkitt, nikhil.... Personally, I haven't spent much time getting too worked up about color identification, as I see it to be quite subjective and as Kim pointed out, generally linked to specific catalogue publishers. I also agree with some of the original points made by Clive ( Anping) when he started this thread, that the solid-color type of guide, similar to what one might find in a paint store or home decorating center, really doesn't help much when it comes to stamps that lack blocks of solid color themselves. For the classic era line-engraved stamps, the old SG Colour Key with line-engraved labels in each color seems way more useful to me, and the ones more recently posted by Daniel and Michael with stamp-like labels also have potential to take into account the "visual averaging" of colors done by the eye rather than just showing solid blocks. Anyway, it's a good discussion and some nice resources presented, so thanks again to all for the contributions!
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brightonpete
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Posts: 5,110
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Post by brightonpete on Oct 4, 2020 14:33:48 GMT
I have always looked at colours as a problem. Sure, a stamp properly mounted in an album, away from lights and the sun will have excellent colour to it. Along as it isn't stored in humid, musty conditions! But any washing or light/sun fading, foxing, silverfish conditions and BAM! They you go, colour varieties! It happens all the time. So I take varieties in colour with a grain of salt. Different colours? Sure, but a grey-blue or a blue-grey? Please, just give me the basic stamp and I'll be happy. It is too easy to get lost in all the variables of colour, especially when they can easily be altered.
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Londonbus1
Moderator
Cinderella Stamp Club Member 3059
Posts: 5,064
What I collect: Wonderland; 1912 Jubilee International Stamp Exhibition, London ('Ideal' Stamp, ephemera); French Cinderellas with an emphasis on Poster Stamps; Israel and Palestine Cinderellas ; Jewish National Fund Stamps, Labels and Tags; London 2010, A Festival of Stamps (anything); South Africa 1937 Coronation issue of KGVI, singles or bi-lingual pairs.
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Post by Londonbus1 on Oct 6, 2020 15:40:52 GMT
A Stanley Gibbons colour guide with the 'Colour Chart' labels just now sold on eBay for £115. Items like these are quite scarce in good condition and don't come up to auction every day. Colours are great fun, comparing the different catalogues is funny and oft times impossible. Also, I don't know about other countries but Great Britain and here in Israel the colours are decided by the Postal Services. For those who collect Machins, the names of the issue colour are inscribed on each sheet in the margin and rarely, if ever, correspond with Gibbons. Or should I say, Gibbons rarely correspond with the Imprint, they change it. So what's the point ? Just enjoy the colours.
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Post by michael on Oct 6, 2020 17:53:00 GMT
A Stanley Gibbons colour guide with the 'Colour Chart' labels just now sold on eBay for £115. Items like these are quite scarce in good condition and don't come up to auction every day.
I was interested in that, to add to the 2 I already have, but it went well over my snipe bid.
There are 6 different versions at least and I think this is one of the rarer ones ands was in good condition, hence 3 people bidding over £100.
I've never used it to check the colour of my stamps and I doubt if the new owner will be doing so either
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Post by michael on Oct 9, 2020 8:33:15 GMT
This is how it was sold by Stanley Gibbons from their 1929 World catalogue. Interestingly it was still being advertised in their 1941 catalogue at the same price, I guess there wasn't much inflation in those days!
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Post by daniel on Nov 30, 2020 17:17:29 GMT
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zipper
Member
Posts: 2,649
What I collect: Classic GB, QV, France Ceres/Napoleon, Classic U.S., Cinderella & Poster Stamps
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Post by zipper on Dec 1, 2020 6:12:52 GMT
Excellent. Thank you!
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,908
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jan 15, 2022 23:23:10 GMT
Hi again, Vince ( stanley64), to continue a tangential discussion based on your recent post in the Portugal & Colonies Ceres thread: Well, hopefully, this will be a better place for this related discussion. As you pointed out, I agree that it seems that colour varieties are one of those areas that can provide lasting entertainment or consternation depending on one's inclination on the subject. Generally, I enjoy finding and correctly identifying colour varieties, but the one snag for me is how to organize them for display. My OCD tendencies mean that I normally like to show a definitive set with one example of each value arranged in ascending order by value, but then what to do with the colour varieties, as I don't want my set to have 3 variants of one value, then 2 of the next and so on. So, how do you do it, Vince? Do you arrange the full set in sequence on one page, and then colour varieties on a separate page? And if you do that, do you then have a duplicate of the colour shown in the "one of each value" set, so that each range of colour variations is shown in full? Just curious, as I have not been consistent with the pages I have arranged in my own collection, especially with Cape of Good Hope rectangles.
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renden
Member
Posts: 9,162
What I collect: Canada-USA-France-Lithuania-Austria--Germany-Mauritius-French Colonies in Africa
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Post by renden on Jan 15, 2022 23:30:44 GMT
Color (colour) charts are what they are if you do have them on your side (not on a scan) and eyes are eyes.....so have fun Like most members have said, always good to have all the relevant stamps (to compare)........ René
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stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,904
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Jan 15, 2022 23:41:12 GMT
color is always of interest to me as a collector of "shades/nuances". I have the SG color guide, and while helpful sometimes.... it seems more helpful for stamps of GB as things seem to to get lost int he translation. It is unfortunate that there is not a color guide for each country that the catalogues are based on.... but I do understand time, sulfur, oxidation, sunlight, acid papers, dirt all can have an effect on the inks used.
I have looked at many color charts, from digital color circles and they all seem to suffer (at least in my mind) from an attempt to put things into a gradual (linear), which works well enough when you are just looking at say a green which could easily be lumped into a combination of blue and yellow pigments... but then black pigment and white pigment throw a curve ball, as does the introduction of other pigments that by themselves have little to do with the color blue.../
these are the kind of thoughts that come to mind at 3:--AM when I'm awake and staring at the ceiling.... I now try to just go back to sleep
I have decided at best, color is a very abstract "thing"
in response to @berylliumgum and how to display, at one point I was going to just have a page with the "main" color and each denomination of a series, and place the shades on a separate page, but I settled on all on same page and in many cases limit (as in the case of France) pages to 1-3 denomination, sometimes more if there are only one or two colors for each. The Sage series has been a true test to commitment!
Like all of stamping, however you decide is the best way for you!
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stanley64
Member
Posts: 1,979
What I collect: Canada, USA, Netherlands, Portugal & Colonies, Antarctic Territories and anything that catches my eye...
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Post by stanley64 on Jan 18, 2022 9:47:03 GMT
Always Chris ( Beryllium Guy), a separate page for the colour variants as in this example created for Canada's Imperial Penny Post and shown here.
For the Portugal and her colonies Ceres issues, you are spot on; the initial page contains the set or sets of a given series, subsequent pages are individual studies of the different values and showcase colour variants, paper varieties and clichés. In which case, 'duplicates' a plenty, including larger blocks...
Happy collecting!
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Post by daniel on Mar 11, 2023 5:41:36 GMT
I also have one of the Stanley Gibbons' Colour Guides with the Perkins Bacon stamps and it is a different edition. Not in great condition but it was cheap. I'm showing the front and back covers, note that there was one other contributor to this project, Harrison and Sons who printed the folder.
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Post by michael on Mar 11, 2023 9:09:57 GMT
The stamps were engraved by Perkins Bacon & Co. in January 1922. According to the late Otto Peetoom, a specialist stamp dealer for South and Central African stamps, there are six different versions. They were detailed in a special edition of the Rhodesian Philatelist, October 2014, "The History of Philatelic Colour Guides - A Review". rhodesianstamps.net/The_Rhodesian_Philatelist/Index_Back_Issues.htm
I have 2, 5 & 6, three to go The price of the Stanley Gibbons monthly gives an idea when these versions were sold. From adverts in the SG World catalogue, in 1929 the price for the SG Monthly was 3/- and in 1939 and 1941 the price was 4/-. An advert for the colour guide in the 1929 SG Stamps of the World catalogue :
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Post by daniel on Mar 11, 2023 11:22:45 GMT
Thanks michael, great information as always. So, it appears that my version is number 1. Since they are all marked Improved Edition, there must have been an earlier version and we can see from your link that there was a Chart 2077 (the same number as ours) but 'with 45 used stamps' which must be the earlier version.
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Post by gstamps on Mar 11, 2023 12:01:19 GMT
Hi stainlessb A few years ago (when I didn't have the Michel Color Guide) I downloaded some pages with colors - I don't remember what the catalog was called. The color "metallic blue"- “steel blue” appears on this page Maybe someone recognizes the name of the catalog.
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Post by michael on Mar 11, 2023 13:44:51 GMT
daniel , yes your colour guide is No 1. Since posting, I've found that I obtained the details on the 6 versions identified by Otto from an exhibit at the 2016 Stampex, entitled "Edward Stanley Gibbons (1840-1913)". Unfortunately I don't have the name of the exhibitor. Getting hold of a copy of that article would be useful.
Edit: They have it at the RPSL, so will check it next time I visit.
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stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,904
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Mar 11, 2023 15:35:32 GMT
I do not recognize, but the spelling COLOUR leads me to believe it is of UK origin
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,908
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 11, 2023 15:54:44 GMT
Thanks for your posts, George ( gstamps) and Stan ( stainlessb). Unless I am mistaken, George’s image is from one of the Stanley Gibbons color guides. The earliest ones had actual stamps in them, but the later ones just have solid blocks of colors. The current one has the individual strips like the kind used for paint color samples for decorating.
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stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
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What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Mar 11, 2023 16:35:52 GMT
Chris, Thanks for the ID! It would appear SG has removed the "metallic blue" from the current one/strips (I purchased mine about 2 years ago (I think) from SG (200 colours) , but it has no date). Steel blue is still there. gstamps - could you send me the downloaded pages? I'll see if I can lift the colors and compare to current (those that match).
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REL1948
Member
Posts: 778
What I collect: 1840-Pre-Decimal, GB and Colonies, 1840 1 penny reds, British Empire Postal History, Switzerland Postal History
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Post by REL1948 on Mar 11, 2023 16:59:18 GMT
Hello Stanley (stainlessb), I just purchased a new Stanley Gibbons Colour Guide two weeks ago out of curiosity to see what if anything has changed. It's not dated so who knows when it was printed? Mine contains the Steel Blue chip but does NOT have a Metallic Blue. I have to say I'm not impressed with the quality of this pricy little bundle. Some of the chips have a ragged white backing paper circle where the hole was incompletely punched through making it useless for laying over a stamp; unless you're trying to find the shade of a "white" stamp. I first bought an SG Colour Guide many years ago when I was trying to identify the various shades of the Canada Small Queens. I found it useless, just my personal experience, others mileage may vary. Rob
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stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,904
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Mar 11, 2023 17:50:41 GMT
REL1948 200 colours? Here's mine, the hole punches are pretty clean, but I agree it is not the most helpful. I'd be curious to find out why metallic blue was dropped.... but I think that may be unlikely I am finding digital comparison more useful than my eyesight, time of day, etc., I've been using PERFOMASTER (PM) for this task, the idea is the scanner and monitor are both calibrated to the same standard. Colors scanned into PM are stored as an RGB code (and each color to 14 places after the decimal! ) if the stamp I am lookling at is scannhed on the same scanner with same settings, and then viewed on the same monitor (also settings the same) the comparison (which is seldom a dead match unless it is a color I have previously scanned in) , but I have a variance (Delta E) as well as a list of the most similar colors. If a stamp yields the same, or nearly the same results I think it safe to conclude what color it is closest to. Similar colors being defined (By PM) as a Delta E value <5.0. stanley64 has sent me a scan with the area he grabbed for analysis (we have the same scanner) and the results were remarkably similar. The challenge is finding an area that's solid, which on the line etched issues can be a challenge. But it seems a better tool than my eyes and the light I'm viewing under.
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stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,904
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Mar 11, 2023 18:33:26 GMT
to give some clarity- here is the definition of Delta E. As it is based on a range of o - 100 , I think it safe to look at it as percentage (the closer to 0, the closer the colors)
Delta E is calculated on a scale ranging from 0 to 100. 0 represents less color difference, whereas 100 shows full distortion. According to an explanation from Zachary Schuessler in this guide, standard perception ranges are: <= 1.0: Cannot be perceived by the human eye
or said another way
Delta E* (Total Color Difference) is calculated based on delta L*, a*, b* color differences and represents the distance of a line between the sample and standard. In addition to quantifying the overall color difference between a sample and standard color, delta E* was intended to be a single number metric for Pass/Fail tolerance decisions.
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stanley64
Member
Posts: 1,979
What I collect: Canada, USA, Netherlands, Portugal & Colonies, Antarctic Territories and anything that catches my eye...
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Post by stanley64 on Mar 12, 2023 8:24:50 GMT
Yup, PERFOMaster or other ways to measure the colour e.g. RGB or CIE-L*ab is probably the best way to go as the values are the same regardless of name as Stanley ( stainlessb ) and I have found. Colour chips aside, I have found that, at least for the Portuguese Ceres issues, the colours are best represented by Stanley Gibbons references. Whatever you collect, I would suggest recommend using a known colour chart or create your own for the stamps in questions; "like for like".... Have and happy collecting!
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stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,904
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Mar 12, 2023 19:01:26 GMT
gstamps was kind enough to send me the .jpg images he had of the earlier SG colour guide. I sampled each color (100 total) and maybe 10% or so was Delta E <2.0, none was a dead match. Most were with Delta E 5.0 or less, and a few, the SG colour from my colour guide were >5.0. This could be from whoever scanned these and the scanner settings, or it could as well be that variations in the ink mixing at the time they were printed was not :"an exact science'. However, it is worthwhile IMHO to have more color samples when comparing. The colour names themselves are more of a pointer than an absolute. I wish the colour guides were not so expensive. I would like to sample the latest and greatest SG, as well as Michel guides different from my own version.
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renden
Member
Posts: 9,162
What I collect: Canada-USA-France-Lithuania-Austria--Germany-Mauritius-French Colonies in Africa
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Post by renden on Mar 12, 2023 19:30:43 GMT
Stan, it would be nice to have the earlier color guides as I am not that impressed with the new color Keys by SG René and I congratulate you for your efforts, perseverance, persistence.....OK....enough !!
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,908
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 12, 2023 19:49:06 GMT
I just did a TSF Google search, and if the result is correct, I don't think that the publication I am about to mention has been cited on the Forum before. Have any of you heard of this one before? I had never heard of this book before, but another collector who attended my recent BESG presentation thought I might be interested in it and sent me an electronic copy (PDF), which apparently came from the United Postal Stationery Society (UPSS). That same collector told me that this book is considered to be the most important color guide of all-time, and that it was used extensively by Clarence Brazer for identifying colors of U.S. Essays & Proofs. The book has 53 color plates in it and covers 1,115 named colors. I have only had a quick skim through, but it looks like a worthwhile reference for students of color. If anyone would like to receive a copy, I am happy to share. Please just contact me by PM and provide me with your email address. Stay color stampy, all!
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brookbam
Member
APS 236261
Posts: 235
What I collect: US...everything until I decide what I don't want to collect! And now thanks to a TSF give-away I'm adding Space topicals!
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Post by brookbam on Mar 12, 2023 20:37:58 GMT
I just did a TSF Google search, and if the result is correct, I don't think that the publication I am about to mention has been cited on the Forum before. Have any of you heard of this one before? There are a bunch of these on ebay for anywhere from $17 to just under $67 (which is a 2008 version). Most are in the high $20s to low $30s. It appears the book has been reprinted at least up to 2016. But just about all the sellers have around a 98% feedback rating which is getting pretty low in my opinion.
I found the book at the Smithsonian Library and I wonder if this book would be of any use to us in the stamp collecting world as far as the color names lining up to what is in any of the catalogs?
But yeah...if you want to study color, this is a rather interesting book. There were about 40 pages describing colors. I am sure that is a fascinating read if you are that interested.
Mike
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stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,904
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Mar 13, 2023 16:51:53 GMT
I like this book already!
from page 11
...showing very clearly the utter worthlessness of color names unless fixed or standardized.
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renden
Member
Posts: 9,162
What I collect: Canada-USA-France-Lithuania-Austria--Germany-Mauritius-French Colonies in Africa
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Post by renden on Mar 13, 2023 21:21:52 GMT
I like this book already! from page 11 ...showing very clearly the utter worthlessness of color names unless fixed or standardized. I would like to see the names (color) in "french" - That should seal everything France is "french" and all my stamps have "french colors" LOL René
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