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Post by jamesw on Sept 13, 2017 2:50:57 GMT
I just posted this Italian cover on eBay, and was trying to decipher the cancel. I think I read the word 'militare' and possibly 'concentrament' which would translate as concentration. Is this a military or possibly POW cancel? Expert opinions please (well, any opinion, really!)   I think the 50c. Victor Emmanuel III stamp may also be high value used, though it's stained. My catalogue is only 2003. |
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Anping
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Post by Anping on Sept 13, 2017 3:03:33 GMT
This doesn't look like a piece of POW mail; there would be camp designation and censor markings on it. What I can read is UFF(iciale) Concentremant  ? Militare, which may be some sort of base camp cancellation, partly because of the 402 designation. But this is partly speculation. |
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Sept 13, 2017 7:50:52 GMT
Disclaimer - I know approximately zero about Italian military postal history. But from what I can come up with, Military Post Office 402 was based in Durazzo (now known as Durrës), Albania. I believe the "concentramento" has to do with centralization of postal services, not anything to do with a concentration camp. Giuseppe Marchese has written a number of catalogues on Italian military postal history. Those aren't online (I don't think, at least not in the legitimate areas of the internet) but there is a large collection of articles he's written for various philatelic journals. All in Italian, however. I can't find an easy comprehensive list of P.M. office numbers but this article shows #402 as being used in Durazzo in 1939-40 and this article shows it being used in Durazzo in 1943. I also found a thread on an Italian forum about misplaced rarity factors on an early version of the postmark and your example shows up as mark #3 (with a variation in that your example has stars on either side of the office number and the example has dashes). Ryan |
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Post by jamesw on Sept 14, 2017 2:00:11 GMT
Crikey! Brilliant research Ryan, Sadly I know zero Italian, but the Durazzo connection is interesting. Thanks both for your responses.
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tobben63
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Post by tobben63 on Aug 31, 2020 18:49:32 GMT
Moderator Note: This post and the four which follow were moved from the Whatcha Been Stamping? thread into this subject-specific thread about postmarks from Italy, with the idea that it will make it easier to further any discussion as well as for anyone interested in postmarks of Italy to find relevant posts on the subject.
Sorting through a lot of envelopes, in the hope that there might be something there. Lots of stamps with no good postmarks, small damages and so on.    But then
 I think this must be some kind of Railway postmark. Genova Ferr. and then Smistamento, about which I'm not sure, but is it a big railway yard?
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cursus
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Post by cursus on Aug 31, 2020 19:50:56 GMT
I guess it stands for Railway station mail processing Center. I'm sure our Italian friends will know the exact meaning.
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cjoprey
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Post by cjoprey on Aug 31, 2020 21:16:40 GMT
I believe "smistamento" just means "sorting". I also think the "Genova Ferr." stands for "Genova Ferrovia" or "Genoa Railway" - so I agree with cursus that this is probably a cancel from the Genoa railway sorting office. |
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rex
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Post by rex on Sept 3, 2020 10:48:22 GMT
 "Smistamento" ..yes means sorting. Very likely this GENOVA FERR. SMISTAMENTO office was inside the railway station or probably in the train direct to Genoa were post office staff were pre-sorting post before arrive to the station, a kind of ambulant sorting office, but I'm not quite sure of this. Anyway . Hour: 17-18 Day: 23 Mounth: March Year: 1922 |
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rex
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Post by rex on Sept 3, 2020 11:54:59 GMT
  They are usually combined with advertising tags, and also with tags with varius types of wavy lines. |
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Sept 4, 2020 21:26:45 GMT
This post has been made to give this thread a bump, and to show that posts from Whatcha Been Stamping? have been moved here to promote further activity and discussion about postmarks of Italy, a worthy subject on its own.
Monte San Savino, Tuscany, Italy7th August 1878 Italy, Sc J6, 10-centisimi buff and magenta postage due stamp issued in 1871 and postmarked with a clear-strike, sock-on-the-nose cancel in Monte San Savino in Tuscany. From Wikipedia:  Map of Italy showing the location of Monte San Savino in Tuscany.  Aerial photo of the town of Monte San Savino (Photo Credit: www.summerinitaly.com/guide/monte-san-savino )
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ameis33
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Post by ameis33 on Sept 5, 2020 15:40:18 GMT
About the first postmark, by my side i will say UFF. CONCENTRAMENTO POSTA MILITARE. Well, the image is not 100% readable, that's what i think it could be...
So Military post concentration office...
Nothing to do with the camp post, but with the field post. I believe a concentration office should collect (concentrate), then sort and deliver all collected mail. It has been said 402 is Durazzo, i believe it collected all military post from Albania... and it could also work as normal post office...
Please take it like a guess...
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Sept 5, 2020 15:48:31 GMT
Thanks for your comments about the first post in this thread, Roberto ( ameis33 ). As the original post was from 3 years ago, and James ( jamesw ) mentioned that he had listed the item on eBay, I would say that there is a good chance that he no longer has it. Still, one never knows, and I have tagged him in case he would like to know that you have responded to his post. If you would like to learn how to use the tagging function on TSF, please have a look here: thestampforum.boards.net/thread/2657/tag-member-postIf you still have questions, please feel free to send me a PM.  |
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Oct 5, 2021 19:41:07 GMT
About the first postmark, by my side i will say UFF. CONCENTRAMENTO POSTA MILITARE. Well, the image is not 100% readable, that's what i think it could be... So Military post concentration office... Nothing to do with the camp post, but with the field post. I believe a concentration office should collect (concentrate), then sort and deliver all collected mail. It has been said 402 is Durazzo, i believe it collected all military post from Albania... and it could also work as normal post office... Please take it like a guess... Hey, James ( jamesw), now that you are back again, you might be interested to know that Roberto has commented about your original post in this thread from 2017. Are you able to make any further comment? |
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rex
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Post by rex on Oct 21, 2021 17:13:34 GMT
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rex
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Post by rex on Oct 23, 2021 20:19:38 GMT
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vikingeck
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Post by vikingeck on Oct 23, 2021 21:29:34 GMT
The PESCARA is displaced to the right of the cancel. So I try to interpret what would be on the Left side. I believe it is. “AMB. ROMA- “ Which would be a railway sorting car. Ambulante [ travelling Post Office TPO in English] on the railway line between Roma and PESCARA. the 133 will be the number of the train |
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rex
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Post by rex on Oct 24, 2021 8:28:55 GMT
Absolutely perfect cancellation reading Alex vikingeck. |
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rex
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Post by rex on Oct 30, 2021 10:10:27 GMT
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rex
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Post by rex on Oct 30, 2021 10:16:54 GMT
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vikingeck
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Post by vikingeck on Oct 30, 2021 10:43:34 GMT
A bit of a puzzle with the geography of the postmarks on the last one rex . It certainly is another TPO Ambulante AMB. ANCONA - BOL…..NA I read BOLSENA at first , but a A dedicated rail line across Italy to such a small lake side town does not seem likely! So it has to be the more obvious rail line along the Adriatic coast to BOLOGNA. BIBBIENA is not on this rail route so it probably went to Bologna and then south by road to BIBBIENA in AREZZO which is an arrival mark at destination. |
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rex
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Post by rex on Oct 30, 2021 15:01:17 GMT
Yes, now I see / read Bologna and your reasoning is absolutely correct, thanks for getting it out of this confusing cancellation Alex vikingeck. |
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vikingeck
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Post by vikingeck on Oct 30, 2021 18:40:21 GMT
I love a puzzle , and I really get excited when I think I have found an answer that is logical and fits the probable route.
I am not an expert, I really know very little about postal history of Italy but I love geography and maps. Ancona-Bolsena looked possible until I looked at the map of Italy . There is no sensible way to build a railway over the mountains to finish at a small town in the middle, but there is space for an easy direct railway along the coast Ancona - Bologna, linking two big cities.That has to be the answer.
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rex
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Post by rex on Oct 30, 2021 19:54:31 GMT
Too modest Alex vikingeck , you have the mindset (Forma mentis) of the postal historian, which arises from the interest and study of the subject. |
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rex
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Post by rex on Nov 1, 2021 8:47:53 GMT
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rex
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Post by rex on Nov 1, 2021 10:54:36 GMT
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rex
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Post by rex on Nov 1, 2021 11:41:26 GMT
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ameis33
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Post by ameis33 on Nov 1, 2021 12:32:58 GMT
Nice the Vascon postmark, Vascon is a fraction of the town of Carbonera, actually with around 800 habitants (Vascon I mean), so not so big… it’s almost 5 km distant from Carbonera, which I don’t know so much (it’s the first time I hear about it) but it must be spread in a lot of small fractions… funny that being a fraction the postmark doesn’t keep the name of the main comune…
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rex
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Post by rex on Nov 1, 2021 13:00:55 GMT
I suppose that Vascon had its own post office at the time, which today will certainly be carbonera being the main municipality.
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rex
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Post by rex on Nov 1, 2021 13:05:40 GMT
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rex
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Post by rex on May 22, 2022 14:45:23 GMT
I can't understand these cancellations, if anyone has any explanation they are welcome.   |
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? Militare, which may be some sort of base camp cancellation, partly because of the 402 designation.
