Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,654
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Feb 7, 2018 6:43:05 GMT
As a few of you have undoubtedly noticed, when it comes to my stamp collection, I, like my father before me, am a "Scott" man. I have always used Scott catalogues and albums, and I have continued along that path throughout my five decades of collecting. When I started collecting in the 1960s and 1970s, I never realized that there were earlier editions of the same albums which had some important differences from the ones that I started with at that time. One of those important differences was that the earlier Scott editions (both brown-cover International and blue-cover International & International Jr.) had images of flags and coats of arms on the first pages of many countries listed in the albums, with blanks spaces for labels with portraits of the leaders. In former times, I would have considered these labels to be worthless, but I have learned from Londonbus1 that they are not! So, I searched through all of the Cinderella threads, and I did not find one already dealing with this subject. As a result, I am starting a new thread in which I will post images of what I believe to be a full set of the flags, rulers, and coats of arms from an old Scott International Junior album published in 1930. Below is a scan of the advertising page in the back of the album which gives a preview of what is to come. Jim ( jkjblue ), from your in-depth experience with Scott albums, do you have any idea when Scott stopped providing spaces for these labels? From my albums, I only know that the 1928 and 1930 editions had spaces for them, and the 1969 edition did not. Any and all comments are welcome. More to come, so stay tuned!
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Post by jkjblue on Feb 7, 2018 15:34:09 GMT
Interesting topic. My 1947 Big Blue (Scott International 1840-1940) have room for the stickers, while my 1969 does not. I would think Scott marketed the stickers for albums ( The "Modern" - the binder cover has an image of a skyscraper and an airplane, and the "Junior"- Big Blue) that kids tended to buy.
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Post by 1840to1940 on Feb 7, 2018 20:52:26 GMT
The 1955 edition of Big Blue has spaces for flags and rulers. As Jim notes, the 1969 does not. So that leaves the question of the 1964 edition which falls in between. My notes on the 1964 are silent on this question.
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judith
Member
currently everything and anything up to 1968
Posts: 121
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Post by judith on Feb 18, 2018 20:04:51 GMT
My Mother's "Modern" Stamp Album, the 1908 edition. I believe it was given to her by a neighbor. My first album was also a modern; it had the skyscraper on it. I still haven't found it . Mom's album has spaces for the flags, etc. temporary image uploadebay picture hosting
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,654
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Feb 18, 2018 20:30:10 GMT
My Mother's "Modern" Stamp Album, the 1908 edition. I believe it was given to her by a neighbor. My first album was also a modern; it had the skyscraper on it. I still haven't found it . Mom's album has spaces for the flags, etc. Thank you very much for this post, Judith. That is some additional good info that I had not realized: I did not know that Scott albums as old as 1908 also had spaces for the flags, rulers, etc., and I also had not realized that the "Modern" album had them at one time in addition to the International & International Junior albums, but it makes sense. I am still planning to make posts of all of the labels, but need a bit more time to get all of them soaked off the pages and then scanned in some kind of presentable order. P.S. I sure hope that you will eventually find your first album, too!
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mikeclevenger
Member
Posts: 887
What I collect: Ohio Tax Stamps, Ohio & Georgia Revenues, US Revenues, US FDC's, & Germany Classics
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Post by mikeclevenger on Feb 19, 2018 10:12:08 GMT
My Mom's album was a modern Stamp Album also. It was from the early 50's but unfortunately my ex-wife kept my stamp collection. It did have the flags in it though as I remember wondering what they were for? I have a modern stamp album I bought on ebay, but I threw the pages away and used it for something else many years ago. LOL.
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Jerry B
Departed
Rest in Peace
Marietta, Georgia USA
Posts: 1,485
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Post by Jerry B on Feb 19, 2018 14:42:49 GMT
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Post by 1840to1940 on Feb 19, 2018 21:50:03 GMT
My copy of the 1896 edition of the brown Scott International employs a peculiar hybrid approach. For some countries, Scott has already printed the flag and coat of arms. For some countries, there is a space for a portrait of the current ruler. In the advertisements at the back of this album, Scott is offering three sets of labels: "The Merchant Flags of the World," "Postage stamp portraits of rulers," and "The Coats of arms of the world." According to the advertisement, Scott is marketing this as suitable for albums produced by any publisher.
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cindycan2
Departed
Rest in Peace
Posts: 321
What I collect: Canada Cinderella stamps
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Post by cindycan2 on Mar 3, 2018 17:09:13 GMT
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,654
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 9, 2018 16:35:29 GMT
First of all, many thanks to jkjblue, 1840to1940, judith, mikeclevenger, Jerry B, and cindycan2 for already responding to this thread while waiting for me to make some more substantive posts. We now have some good data points on Scott's use of these labels: Scott Albums using the Labels:Modern, International Jr. (blue cover), and International 19th Century (brown cover) Editions using the Labels:1896, 1908, 1928, 1930, 1955 Editions not using the Labels:1969 Please see the images below for comparison. Scott International 19th Century Album (Brown Cover) published around 1930 Scott International Junior Album (Blue Cover) published in 1928 Scott International Part I, 1840-1940 (Blue Cover) published in 1969 So, you can see by comparing these three first pages for France in these three albums, how the editions were different in the first place, and how they changed over time. As expected, the brown-cover International was the most elaborate, providing illustrations over which the merchant flags and coats of arms could be affixed and spaces similar to those for the postage stamps, for the rulers. In the case of France, the presentation is fairly elaborate with 1 flag, 2 coats of arms, and 3 rulers. The blue cover International Junior published around the same time has the same illustrations and spaces provided, although in a more space-efficient arrangement, but it lacks the other descriptive information found in the brown-cover album regarding form of government, geographic area, population, currency, etc. By 1969, the blue-cover International Part I, which was the follow-on to the original International Junior went to a more austere format with no illustrations or spaces for labels, and no descriptive information, either. I imagine that the Scott editors made that choice in order to save space and/or reduce the number of pages needed in the album. Now that the preamble is in place, the next post will finally show some scans of the labels.
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,654
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 9, 2018 16:57:08 GMT
Merchant Flag Labels (circa 1930) Argentine Republic through Bremen
While going through these labels, I noticed pretty quickly that I did not recognize some of the flags, so I looked up the term to confirm the meaning. From the Merriam-Webster Dictionary: "a flag flown by the merchant vessels of a country that is sometimes identical with the national flag." That information was helpful, and explained why some of the flags were clearly recognizable to me and others were not. I have arranged the flags in straight alphabetical order using the original spellings, rather than grouping them by region or putting states under their parent countries. Some of the country name spellings have changed over the years, for example "Corea" later became "Korea". There are some interesting editorial choices in the set of 88 (see the first 8 below). I have now soaked all of the labels off of the old album pages (from a 1930 edition Scott International Jr.), and condition is generally good, although somewhat mixed. I imagine that the collector who separated these stamps from their original sheet form may have been a youngster, as the separating and mounting seems not to have been done with particular care. I will post more images tomorrow, and point out a couple of interesting facts that I have learned about these labels in the process of putting this set together.
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,654
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 10, 2018 16:22:02 GMT
Merchant Flag Labels (circa 1930) Buenos Aires through Egypt
Today's installment of flags shows the next 16 labels in the set. Points of note: China's merchant flag is a pennant rather than a full-size flag, which I find interesting. Out of the 88, only a few are pennants. I also find it interesting that the Confederate States of America had their own merchant flag, and that it is different from the "stars and bars" that is typically thought of. Of particular note regarding this set, I should mention that when I went through the old Scott International Jr. album to remove the labels, I was initially disappointed to learn that I counted only 87 labels, not 88. After going through the cut-up album multiple times, I was forced to conclude that I was missing one flag, and I was stumped as to why and how that might be. It appeared that the original owner of the old album had used the labels in every indicated place. So, I decided to compare the blue-cover International Jr. and the brown-cover International 19th Century albums to discover any differences, and it didn't take long for me to find that difference. The brown-cover book has a page for Buenos Aires (spelled "Buenos Ayres" in the album), placed as a back-of-the-book page at the end of the pages for Argentina. The blue-cover book does not, so, mystery solved. What it suggests to me is that the Buenos Aires label will be the hardest one to come by, as most, if not all, flag sets coming out of the blue-cover albums will end up being one short, unless the owner chose to place the extra label on a blank page somewhere else in the book or to retain it as collateral material. In my case, I did a web search, and was very lucky to discover one dealer who was selling a partial set of the labels as individual stamps, and I was able to acquire this one to complete the set. I noted that the dealer was charging the same price per label for any that he had available, and did not attach any premium to the one from Buenos Aires. I am unsure if that was an oversight or not, but I was happy to get the one missing label to complete the set.
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Post by 1840to1940 on Mar 10, 2018 16:53:15 GMT
Beryllium Guy, most interesting. Thanks for the images and background information.
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Londonbus1
Moderator
Cinderella Stamp Club Member 3059
Posts: 4,872
What I collect: Cinderellas and some Ephemera from Great Britain, France and Israel plus a few beautiful bits from elsewhere !! Topical interests include Flags & Judaica, the latter with an emphasis on the Jewish National Fund.
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Post by Londonbus1 on Mar 10, 2018 20:43:44 GMT
Wow ! Some of those flags have changed !!
I wonder where the Egypt flag comes from ? There is a red Flag of olden times with a Crescent & Star but I do not recall ne with only the Crescent !
More research coming up !
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Londonbus1
Moderator
Cinderella Stamp Club Member 3059
Posts: 4,872
What I collect: Cinderellas and some Ephemera from Great Britain, France and Israel plus a few beautiful bits from elsewhere !! Topical interests include Flags & Judaica, the latter with an emphasis on the Jewish National Fund.
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Post by Londonbus1 on Mar 10, 2018 21:01:41 GMT
The only red flag of Egypt with crescent only that I found was dated around 1885-1890 and appeared as one of a set of Allen & Ginter's Cigarette Cards, Flag Series No.9. But there was no close-up detail.
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,654
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 10, 2018 21:07:49 GMT
Wow ! Some of those flags have changed !! I wonder where the Egypt flag comes from ? There is a red Flag of olden times with a Crescent & Star but I do not recall ne with only the Crescent ! More research coming up ! Thanks, LB1! I have decided that your nickname could also be "Flag Man of TSF". I really liked your thread on the flag history of Lebanon, illustrated with both Cinderellas and postage stamps. Truly excellent stuff! I confess that I was hoping that this thread might pique your interest. I also have to give you and others such as tomiseksj and firstfrog2013 credit, as I had little interest in Cinderellas before getting involved on TSF, and now I am finding them fascinating after having ignored them for years. I look forward to learning more from you in due course!
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,654
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 10, 2018 21:26:49 GMT
The only red flag of Egypt with crescent only that I found was dated around 1885-1890 and appeared as one of a set of Allen & Ginter's Cigarette Cards, Flag Series No.9. But there was no close-up detail. I also did a quick search, but could not find one which was red with white crescent only. Plenty of images with a white star in addition to the crescent, or green with white crescent and three white stars. It certainly seems that this image must have already been out of date by 1930 (the publication date for the album out of which my labels were salvaged), but as I learned from 1840to1940, these labels go back as far as 1896 anyway, so it may be that Scott never bothered to update them from 1896 to 1930. Who knows?
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firstfrog2013
Member
Posts: 3,276
What I collect: BNA Liberia St Pierre U.S. Bolivia Turkey
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Post by firstfrog2013 on Mar 10, 2018 23:59:04 GMT
BG I gotta say thanks for completing that set of flags.It has always been one of my goals to leave behind completed sets.Even a completed set of Cinderellas is much better than a partial set.If we compare it to stamps would not all like completed sets? Good job friend!
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,654
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 11, 2018 1:30:42 GMT
BG I gotta say thanks for completing that set of flags. It has always been one of my goals to leave behind completed sets.Even a completed set of Cinderellas is much better than a partial set. If we compare it to stamps would not all like completed sets? Good job friend! Thanks, Frog, I appreciate your post! I agree with you 100%--complete sets are wonderful, and I love the hunt in putting them together, especially long ones. That's one of the reasons why my Canada QV Jubilee set means so much to me. Not only do I love the stamps, but it felt like I really accomplished something when I completed the set after nearly 10 years in the making. With these flag stamps, I just assumed that there was a full set since I had the album intact, and I was really disappointed when I discovered that one was missing. One out of eighty-eight.... to me, that was a clear message that I needed to complete the set. So, I started searching on eBay (no luck at the time), and I eventually stumbled on one dealer who listed these labels for sale as individual stamps. I got lucky, and I will take it. There is something tremendously satisfying in completing a set, which I suppose is one of the many reasons that I enjoy collecting stamps so much. Now, wherever these stamps end up, they will go there as a complete set. OK, that's one job done, now just another couple of thousand things, and all will be in order!
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,654
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 12, 2018 15:00:38 GMT
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firstfrog2013
Member
Posts: 3,276
What I collect: BNA Liberia St Pierre U.S. Bolivia Turkey
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Post by firstfrog2013 on Mar 18, 2018 17:37:13 GMT
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mikeclevenger
Member
Posts: 887
What I collect: Ohio Tax Stamps, Ohio & Georgia Revenues, US Revenues, US FDC's, & Germany Classics
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Post by mikeclevenger on Apr 5, 2018 9:15:30 GMT
OK, got 2 1940 albums and a 1932 album last week. All have the spaces for the flag stamps in them. Just thought I would add. One of the 1940 albums is basically brand new. It has less than 15 US stamps ever mounted in the entire album, still don't need it, but I have it. LOL.
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,654
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Apr 5, 2018 15:06:45 GMT
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,654
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Apr 21, 2018 21:38:02 GMT
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Post by Bas S Warwick on Apr 22, 2018 2:00:08 GMT
Merchant Flag Labels (circa 1930) India through North Germany
Today's installment of flags shows the next 16 labels in the set. Points of note: all full-size flags this time, with some interesting countries. Interesting seeing the flag for New Zealand. It is the original 1834 design for the flag of the United Tribes of New Zealand (note 'United Tribes'). Currently it is not the national flag and is only used as a flag by some Maori groups in New Zealand.
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,654
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on May 10, 2018 21:44:32 GMT
Merchant Flag Labels (circa 1930) India through North Germany
Today's installment of flags shows the next 16 labels in the set. Points of note: all full-size flags this time, with some interesting countries. Interesting seeing the flag for New Zealand. It is the original 1834 design for the flag of the United Tribes of New Zealand (note 'United Tribes'). Currently it is not the national flag and is only used as a flag by some Maori groups in New Zealand. Thanks for your previous comments, Andrew, and sorry to be so late to respond. Your added info is very interesting, indeed, as I was not at all familiar with the "United Tribes of NZ" moniker. Clearly, I have some further research to do on that subject. I am not surprised, however, that this is not a representation of the national flag of NZ, as these are the Merchant Flags from the indicated countries, and as a result, only a few are actually the same as the national flags of the respective countries. It makes me wonder why the editors of Scott Albums back in those days would have chosen these more obscure merchant flags over the national flags.... who knows? Merchant Flag Labels (circa 1930) Norway through SerbiaAnyway, here is the next installment of 16 flag labels in the set. There are a couple fairly uncommon ones in this group, I think, such as the German States like Oldenburg, Prussia, and Saxony, and also the Orange River Colony and Roman States. All in all, quite a nice and interesting set of flags, I think.
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,654
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on May 26, 2018 20:01:33 GMT
Merchant Flag Labels (circa 1930) Siam through WurtembergOK, everyone, these 16 flag stamps are the last group in the set! I tried to space out the posts a bit, but perhaps in hindsight, that was a miscalculation. There are, again, some interesting countries represented in this last installment, too. I was originally planning to continue this thread by posting images of the Coats of Arms and Rulers from all the countries, too. But cindycan2 has already posted a full sheet of the Rulers, so perhaps I should just dispense with doing that, too, unless others want to see larger images of those stamps. I have them as individual stamps, so my posts would be similar in size to what the flags are, I think. Also, I will just mention that I have decided to trade my flag set to Londonbus1, since he is post a Cinderella and flag stamp specialist. Given those conditions, it seems that he is meant to have these! I am hoping that he will come to see me in France, so I can hand them over in person. I am not sure if I trust the local post office with these just yet! If you have an opinion about the future of this thread, please feel free to express it. I don't have the Coats of Arms or Rulers with me at the moment, but I will have access to those when I am back in California in June, so I will be able to continue posting to the thread after that.
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Londonbus1
Moderator
Cinderella Stamp Club Member 3059
Posts: 4,872
What I collect: Cinderellas and some Ephemera from Great Britain, France and Israel plus a few beautiful bits from elsewhere !! Topical interests include Flags & Judaica, the latter with an emphasis on the Jewish National Fund.
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Post by Londonbus1 on Sept 13, 2018 18:32:28 GMT
I'd like to add to this thread ! Beryllium Guy did indeed hand these over to me during my stay in France. It was a beautiful gesture and I will look after them always. He displayed them neatly and in alphabetical order on stocksheets for the 'presentation moment'. Thanks Chris. They are now keeping company with hundreds of other Flag Cinderellas in their special home ! Londonbus1
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tomiseksj
Moderator
Woodbridge, Virginia, USA
Posts: 6,265
What I collect: Worldwide stamps/covers, Cinderellas, Ohio Prepaid Sales Tax Receipts, U.S. WWII Ration ephemera
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Post by tomiseksj on May 2, 2021 19:37:42 GMT
Thanks to the posts in this thread, I've been able to identify the origin of these two items:
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,654
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on May 2, 2021 21:18:18 GMT
Thanks for your post, Steve ( tomiseksj).... I am glad that the thread came in useful. It's very nice of you to give it a bump after 2½ years! It reminds me that although I finished posting all of the flags in this set, I never moved on to posting the Coats of Arms. I do have those, and they are resting comfortably at the house in Southern California, so it will still be some time before I can get back to posting in this thread in earnest.
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