renden
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What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Jan 11, 2019 13:52:30 GMT
Very nice cover René. As a matter of coincidence (?), GC 2240 E is already displayed in this thread, was included on the postmarks album image 24.Sep.18, listed as Marseille Chapitre. blaamand Beryllium GuyI should have re-read this thread before asking......apologies.......happy I have this cover - Thanks ! René
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jan 11, 2019 13:56:22 GMT
Very nice cover René. As a matter of coincidence (?), GC 2240 E is already displayed in this thread, was included on the postmarks album image 24.Sep.18, listed as Marseille Chapitre. blaamand Beryllium Guy I should have re-read this thread before asking......apologies.......happy I have this cover - Thanks ! René No worries, René, just wanted to be sure that you knew what you had there. Enjoy!
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blaamand
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Currently creating custom pages until 1940.
Posts: 1,459
What I collect: Worldwide - Stamps and Postmarks - not enough time...
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Post by blaamand on Jan 11, 2019 14:25:48 GMT
No worries René, can't expect anyone to reread the entire thread before posting 😊 And good things can always be repeated.
I just thought it was quite peculiar and funny that the very same and rare postmark-variety comes up several times, what's the chance of that when France has about 10.000 different numeral postmarks 😎
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renden
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Posts: 8,705
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Jan 11, 2019 14:54:42 GMT
Very nice cover René. As a matter of coincidence (?), GC 2240 E is already displayed in this thread, was included on the postmarks album image 24.Sep.18, listed as Marseille Chapitre. I have to insist that the 2240E 1869 Marseille - Le Chapitre cover was part of Beryllium Guy's wonderful packet received yesterday and I have documented it this morning with all the great info from members of this Forum........ René
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jan 11, 2019 15:10:14 GMT
No worries René, can't expect anyone to reread the entire thread before posting 😊 And good things can always be repeated. I just thought it was quite peculiar and funny that the very same and rare postmark-variety comes up several times, what's the chance of that when France has about 10.000 different numeral postmarks 😎 Actually, Jon, the chances are pretty good when the same person procures the covers from the stock of the same dealer at the same time! P.S. And when one lives very near to Marseille, as I do..... Also, I got the only two he had, so I don't expect to see anymore anytime soon.
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blaamand
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Currently creating custom pages until 1940.
Posts: 1,459
What I collect: Worldwide - Stamps and Postmarks - not enough time...
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Post by blaamand on Jan 12, 2019 7:48:51 GMT
Aha, voilà, that explains it 😊 You are too kind Chris 🤗
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zipper
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Posts: 2,649
What I collect: Classic GB, QV, France Ceres/Napoleon, Classic U.S., Cinderella & Poster Stamps
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Post by zipper on Dec 10, 2019 0:16:53 GMT
I collect the numeral cancels, but the Grille has become my favorite so I got this because there are seven #4 with a grille.
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zipper
Member
Posts: 2,649
What I collect: Classic GB, QV, France Ceres/Napoleon, Classic U.S., Cinderella & Poster Stamps
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Post by zipper on Aug 27, 2020 2:47:10 GMT
Large numeral postmarks from France
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zipper
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Posts: 2,649
What I collect: Classic GB, QV, France Ceres/Napoleon, Classic U.S., Cinderella & Poster Stamps
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Post by zipper on Aug 27, 2020 2:49:06 GMT
Small numeral postmarks from France
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zipper
Member
Posts: 2,649
What I collect: Classic GB, QV, France Ceres/Napoleon, Classic U.S., Cinderella & Poster Stamps
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Post by zipper on Oct 6, 2020 18:12:07 GMT
Any idea what Cotes represents? Is it a rarity factor, or a price? It's a page from this book.
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zipper
Member
Posts: 2,649
What I collect: Classic GB, QV, France Ceres/Napoleon, Classic U.S., Cinderella & Poster Stamps
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Post by zipper on Oct 6, 2020 18:25:37 GMT
Beryllium Guy According to the above mentioned book, 2240 E has a 0,50 Cote.
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zipper
Member
Posts: 2,649
What I collect: Classic GB, QV, France Ceres/Napoleon, Classic U.S., Cinderella & Poster Stamps
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Post by zipper on Oct 6, 2020 18:32:07 GMT
I suspect Cotes is a rating system.
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madbaker
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Posts: 691
What I collect: (Mark) General worldwide collector (to 1975 or so) with a soft spot for Sweden and the rest of Scandinavia.
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Post by madbaker on Oct 6, 2020 18:48:44 GMT
zipper , Beryllium Guy I google translated 'cotes' and it came up as 'odds'. But I suspect the values are prices. So high price === rare. The line above the table is my reasoning. It translates as:
No. 41 is very rare on letter because it is confused with No. 44, which is faulty.
And 41 is listed as 90 (Francs?) whereas 44 is listed as 0.25
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stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Oct 6, 2020 18:49:26 GMT
zipper I think you may be correct- i have tried translating the line above the table with little success, but Cotes by itself comes up as "Odds" Hopefully one of our French speaking members will chime in?
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hrdoktorx
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What I collect: France (and French territories), Africa, Canada, USA, Germany, Guatemala, stamps about science, flags, maps, stamps on stamps...
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Post by hrdoktorx on Oct 6, 2020 19:15:13 GMT
"Cote" in the philatelic context means "catalog value". It means "odds" when you are talking about betting on horse races.
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renden
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Posts: 8,705
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Oct 6, 2020 19:26:07 GMT
"Cote" in the philatelic context means "catalog value". It means "odds" when you are talking about betting on horse races. I agree with Xavier ! A "french" expression we use here in french-Canada: "il est bien coté"......it is well evaluated - I believe the french from FRANCE use it in many sentences - not here in my Canada Region but in Québec Province, maybe.......funny thing.....the Québecois use a lot of "english" terminology.....they love the US so often will try to emulate the US language (if there is one ) ??
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Oct 6, 2020 19:41:31 GMT
Thanks for all the fun chat here zipper , madbaker , stainlessb , hrdoktorx , renden .... I have been working late today and only just saw all this activity, and our two native French speakers have beaten me to the punch on responding. Well, if the catalogue value of the Large Numeral 2240E is 0,50.... that doesn't sound too good. 50 Centimes, is it Xavier? Half a Franc, back in the day? I paid a bit more than that for the covers.
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zipper
Member
Posts: 2,649
What I collect: Classic GB, QV, France Ceres/Napoleon, Classic U.S., Cinderella & Poster Stamps
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Post by zipper on Oct 6, 2020 19:45:45 GMT
madbaker A few listings actually say rare.
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zipper
Member
Posts: 2,649
What I collect: Classic GB, QV, France Ceres/Napoleon, Classic U.S., Cinderella & Poster Stamps
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Post by zipper on Oct 6, 2020 19:49:06 GMT
Can anyone decipher the first page. Already tried Google Translate without results. url=https://ibb.co/TMRmnHT] [/url]
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zipper
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Posts: 2,649
What I collect: Classic GB, QV, France Ceres/Napoleon, Classic U.S., Cinderella & Poster Stamps
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Post by zipper on Oct 6, 2020 19:54:24 GMT
2nd page Tried uploading them to Google Translate, but they wouldn't open. Tried highliting them by paragraphs, but the whole page would turn blue.
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hrdoktorx
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What I collect: France (and French territories), Africa, Canada, USA, Germany, Guatemala, stamps about science, flags, maps, stamps on stamps...
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Post by hrdoktorx on Oct 6, 2020 20:00:33 GMT
If you give me a couple of hours, I can translate it for you. It's early 20th-century French style, not the sort of text you see much anymore.
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zipper
Member
Posts: 2,649
What I collect: Classic GB, QV, France Ceres/Napoleon, Classic U.S., Cinderella & Poster Stamps
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Post by zipper on Oct 6, 2020 20:04:56 GMT
Thank you ever so much. Take your time, my friend. No need to hurry.
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renden
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Posts: 8,705
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Oct 6, 2020 20:05:52 GMT
If you give me a couple of hours, I can translate it for you. It's early 20 th-century French style, not the sort of text you see much anymore. I could help, Xavier but for how much $$$ - I did not study translation but can read this easily (in french) !!
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zipper
Member
Posts: 2,649
What I collect: Classic GB, QV, France Ceres/Napoleon, Classic U.S., Cinderella & Poster Stamps
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Post by zipper on Oct 6, 2020 20:17:34 GMT
Beryllium Guy Here's the page with 2240. It seems that A, B, C, and D are the costly ones.
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zipper
Member
Posts: 2,649
What I collect: Classic GB, QV, France Ceres/Napoleon, Classic U.S., Cinderella & Poster Stamps
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Post by zipper on Oct 6, 2020 20:19:00 GMT
For some strange reason, I'm unable to crop these scans. Never happened before.
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Oct 6, 2020 21:51:11 GMT
Thanks for the posts, zipper ! You are quite right about the 2240 variants. The A, B, C, and D would seem to be way more scarce than the E. Oh well, they were nice examples in any case. I can't remember now what I paid for them. I bought them in Aix from the dealer at the street market. By the way, I was able to make a copy of the image you posted, crop it, and then replace it in your post. Hope that's OK!
Edit: Maybe I should have taken a black marker and made the "E" into a "B".... that would have increased the value by a factor of 6!
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hrdoktorx
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What I collect: France (and French territories), Africa, Canada, USA, Germany, Guatemala, stamps about science, flags, maps, stamps on stamps...
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Post by hrdoktorx on Oct 6, 2020 21:53:34 GMT
OK. Here goes. A little rough, but my wife charges 40 Euros a page, so you get what you pay for:
Some collectors may have been surprised to see that, contrary to our first intentions, we have split this work into two separate parts. We felt we needed to do so such that, at the request of several cancellation specialists, collectors may constantly have a current price available. There are numerous advantages to this and avoid having to fastidiously build wish lists; moreover a catalog is by definition subject to change and this will make the preparation of future editions less costly. Some may also be surprised to see that in our nomenclature, some towns of small size are indicated as having a much larger population. We remind our readers that this work was based on the population making effective use of a given post office. In order to do this, we had to reconstitute the postal zones with all the villages and hamlets that belonged to them. We relied on statistical works, census data, and the like. We also took into account the changes that occurred later following transfers or closure of post offices. An example will make it all clear: Foucarmont (Lower Seine) had only 717 inhabitants and the 13 towns of its postal zone had 6222 inhabitants, for a total of 6939 inhabitants. Should one be surprised? No, because at that time France was less endowed with railways, so the towns served by a post office could be quite far away from each other, quite often even, one post office could serve localities found in one or even two neighbouring départements; moreover it is not uncommon to find important cities of several thousand people having their post office in a village of a few hundred souls, but which had a railway connection. We faced another delicate question: how to value the cancellations? Some used the rarity index, this is mathematically correct but in practice the collector and the seller find this cumbersome. An apparently easy solution was available: attribute a fixed value for a given stamp (meaning for the most common: 20c. Empire imperforate and 20c Empire perforated or Empire with laurels); but here again we were forced to neglect the coloured stamps (10c, 40c, etc...) which are also cancelled and can be found in great numbers in any numbered postmarks collection. Hence, we have adopted the solution already put forward by respected specialists: a fixed value for the cancellation, to which the collector adds the value of the stamp itself.
Page 2:
Before ending this preamble, I wish to mention some rare numbers and remind the reader of the reason for their rarity. In 1862 the Central Postal Administration stipulated, in its December bulletin, "to exchange with the postal establishment to which the new nomenclature attributes the old number, the obliterating stamp and the descriptive stamp for the loads that bear that number". In other words, the small number type cancelling stamps had to be sent to the localities to which the new large number type nomenclature was attributing them; thus it is not uncommon to find small number type cancels having been used in post offices, along with the large number type cancels (on days with lots of mail) and also on registered covers. Maybe some offices used the small number type cancels more often than the new large number type cancels, and this explains the difficulty one encounters when seeking certain large number type cancellations. For all cases where some doubt may remain, the collector shall seek the small number type cancel on an imperforate issue; conversely a large number type cancel should be sought on a perforated stamp, a laurel or a Cérès issue. For instance a new Alsace-Lorraine number created in 1868 can only be from Alsace-Lorraine on a perforated stamp; on a Cérès issue it will be considered to belong to the reassigned post office - on a laurel the doubt remains. Another example: The #441 small type on an imperforate is from Bordeaux The #441 small type on a perforated stamp can be Bordeaux or Benfeld The #441 small type on a laurel should be from Benfeld M : Changed number -- R : Replacement of Alsace-Lorraine
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We could cite examples ad infinitum, but the field of philately is so vast that we could never explore it fully. This is why we will be happy to receive comments from our customers and all philatelists that enjoy learning of this matter, and, in general, all the observations that they may wish to formulate to us. Following the success encountered by the first editions of "La Cote des Oblitérations de France" and to answer to the kind encouragements from our friends, we have gone back to work and present to you the third edition. As its predecessor, this one illustrates and completes our "Cancellation Nomenclature" and offers to amateurs a serious reference for their transactions. Thanks to the help provided by several illustrious collectors that have requested anonymity we have tried to give account in an objective and rational manner of the current status of the cancellation market. I believe it useful to remind collectors that the catalog values are established for standalone items. It goes without saying that full sheets or large fragments can, in some cases, importantly gain in value.
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Oct 6, 2020 22:08:34 GMT
Wow, Xavier ( hrdoktorx ), that was some fast translation work there! Well done to you and/or Marie. Ironically, now that I have read the piece through in both languages, I am still not sure that I fully appreciate what point they are trying to make. Is it something to do with populations of certain cities/towns in France not really correlating to the rarity/value of the postmarks from those places? Is it saying something else that I am just missing?
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hrdoktorx
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Posts: 6,588
What I collect: France (and French territories), Africa, Canada, USA, Germany, Guatemala, stamps about science, flags, maps, stamps on stamps...
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Post by hrdoktorx on Oct 6, 2020 22:19:13 GMT
Marie did not help me, but I was saying she would do a better job if given the time and money.
The author makes two points. The first is that one must keep in mind the actual population being served by a post office, which may be much bigger than the town's population itself, because post offices extended over several towns/villages, and were not always located in the most populous one, but rather the better connected to the postal network infrastructure. The second point is about the change from small type to large type numerals. When renumbering occurred in 1868, post offices had to send their old number cancellers (with small numerals) to the post offices where that number was going to be used (but now with large numerals). So it is possible to find small numeral cancels from the location where the same number, but as a large numeral, had been assigned, as staff would sometimes use the small numeral cancelling stamps if they could not use the large numeral ones or found it more convenient at the time. So the author recommends, when such reassignments did occur, to look for stamps that were contemporary to either small or large numeral type cancels exclusive usage.
Hope that clears it up.
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renden
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What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Oct 6, 2020 22:28:45 GMT
Xavier - Thanks for the time you put on this project hrdoktorxRené
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