brightonpete
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On a hike at Goodrich-Loomis
Posts: 5,110
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Post by brightonpete on Aug 26, 2018 15:31:51 GMT
Hey, I'm back. With my ADD I had to bow out as I was continually checking in all the time when my concentration from one thing faded!
I recently bought a lot of Albanian stamps. MNH and used. Unfortunately ALL the used are CTO. They are also hinged to pages. So they all have full gum with attached hinge. I tore a couple off, but that also damaged the stamp a bit as well. Can one safely just dunk these in water to wash off the hinge, as well as the gum? I don't care about the gum, since they are all "used"" anyway. Or should I go about this another way to remove the hinges?
I hope everyone has been enjoying the summer. It's been nice here with less heat & humidity, although I am still sleeping on top of the bed...
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brightonpete
Departed
Rest in Peace
On a hike at Goodrich-Loomis
Posts: 5,110
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Post by brightonpete on Aug 26, 2018 21:30:03 GMT
...and another thing about Albania: why did Scott screw up the issuing order? And why have they not corrected it? It's a mess in 1960.
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blaamand
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Currently creating custom pages until 1940.
Posts: 1,459
What I collect: Worldwide - Stamps and Postmarks - not enough time...
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Post by blaamand on Aug 26, 2018 21:51:35 GMT
I would do the same, soak them. In my point of view CTO is neither mint or used. I consider them synthetic spacefillers, and would rather have a damaged beaten up postally used stamp than a CTO, but that's just me. Postally used stamps from Albania 1950-1990 are not very easy to find unfortunately, at least I have found very few.
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Ryan
Member
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,720
What I collect: If I have a catalogue for it, I collect it. And I have many catalogues ....
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Post by Ryan on Aug 27, 2018 5:06:12 GMT
I know that Chinese collectors prefer CTO stamps to those which have gone through the mail - they then want the gum on the CTO stamps to be in perfect condition so there is considered to be a loss of value if the CTO stamp is hinged. But that's just their perspective, and I think it probably has to do with lower paper stiffness on their envelopes, less automation during cancelling (meaning more frequent sloppy handstamps) and more damage caused by bends and scrapes during the mail handling process (just my guess, though). Luckily for the rest of us, we don't have such rules about CTO stamps. There isn't much in the western world that is said specific to CTO stamps other than generalized notes in the catalogues which say that stamps with postal cancellations are worth "more" than CTO stamps (but you have to guess how much more). Michel's Germany Specialized catalogue does list specific prices for CTO East German stamps as well as postally used, but off the top of my head, that's the only example I can think of which gets specific. And in that case, I'd have to dig through the mountains of small print in Michel to see if there's any mention made of whether or not the gum has to be present (and hinge marks not present) on those CTO stamps.
I generally leave the gum in place on a CTO stamp unless there's something wrong with it. For example, if there are any adhesions other than a hinge mark, I'll soak off the gum to clean up the stamp. Some brands of hinges will cause the stamp to kind of pucker around the hinge, leaving the hinge marking visible from the front side of the stamp, so if I can see that I will soak the gum off of those stamps too. And later Albanian stamps are among those I end up soaking the most often . They often have a very shiny surface texture and that really shows up any hinge marking from the front. Into the bath they go!
Ryan
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Post by sherro on Aug 27, 2018 12:35:38 GMT
Australia is one of the many countries that now prints the CTO "postmark" during the printing process. I consider them junk and segregate them from my "real" stamps.
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blaamand
Member
Currently creating custom pages until 1940.
Posts: 1,459
What I collect: Worldwide - Stamps and Postmarks - not enough time...
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Post by blaamand on Aug 27, 2018 14:02:29 GMT
That's kind of sad, even Australia Post starting to issue trash
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,654
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Aug 27, 2018 14:52:44 GMT
I don't have any particular expertise in this area, but in general, I agree with Jon ( blaamand) and Ryan, I would also soak the stamps. In fact, I read in a stamp collecting how-to book some years ago that the author of that book recommended removing the gum from CTO stamps in virtually all cases. I tend to agree with the idea that if the stamp is in excellent condition with the gum on, then I would probably just leave it, but if it has hinge remnants due to the gum, then I would just go ahead and soak the stamps to clean them up. I am also sad to hear that Australia is now doing the pre-printed CTOs (thanks, sherro). Those are definitely not on my list of interests!
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Post by sherro on Aug 27, 2018 14:55:22 GMT
Australia Post has been issuing rubbish for quite a while.
However, "real" CTO's from Australia (particularly pre-decimals) should NEVER be soaked if they have clean gum. They are very collectable
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brightonpete
Departed
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On a hike at Goodrich-Loomis
Posts: 5,110
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Post by brightonpete on Aug 28, 2018 12:40:35 GMT
Thanks. I'll have too buy a stamp drying book & get at it. All will be cleansed! Too bad postally used are rare. I suppose they printed so many, with not many mailings or collectors, so dump the remainders off on dealers at a fraction of the cost.
Well, at least it will be an easier way to get rid of the hinges!
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darkormex
Member
Swinging through Switzerland and getting tied up in Thailand
Posts: 2,145
What I collect: The World...just printing and mounting as I go...call me crazy!
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Post by darkormex on Feb 1, 2021 3:12:28 GMT
I am happy I searched for this because my question is answered. I was debating in my head whether I should just soak a bunch of DDR CTOs that are stuck down to the page in an old album I purchased last year...the answer is above. Later I may go back to an old Czech collection that I set aside long ago for this very reason; I was reluctant to soak the CTO stamps that were hopelessly stuck on the album pages.
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angore
Member
Posts: 5,346
What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on Feb 1, 2021 11:44:35 GMT
Do people actually insist CTO's need to be never hinged with full gum? Some claim they are worthless so how could they be worth even less? Note: I have CTO's and treat them like any other stamp.
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darkormex
Member
Swinging through Switzerland and getting tied up in Thailand
Posts: 2,145
What I collect: The World...just printing and mounting as I go...call me crazy!
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Post by darkormex on Feb 1, 2021 12:39:13 GMT
angore, I hesitated. I agree that they shouldn't be that different from any other used stamp. 9 times out of 10, the collections I buy with CTO stamps from Eastern European countries have stuck down stamps just because they have all that gum on them, and, of course, they are inevitably hinged. Also inevitably, trying to remove them from an album page means having to carefully try to remove them without thinning them, which is sometimes impossible. Sometimes the best thing to do is to just put the whole page in water and watch them float off the page.
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ameis33
Member
What's in a name? That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet
Posts: 505
What I collect: Poland and Italy Republic
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Post by ameis33 on Feb 1, 2021 21:20:08 GMT
I believe there is a basic error when considering a CTO. CTO is NOT an used stamp. Is a stamp which has been cancelled at the beginning by the postal administration to be sold to the collectionist. So, the "normal" status of a CTO is with gum. Normal is a statistic concept. When something happen a lot of time (when the frequency of an event is high) this thing become "normal". CTO are sold with gum, that's the normal condition. The way CTO are cancelled is pretty different by the way in which postally used stamps are cancelled, and so they can be easily (ok, not always easily) recognized... So, to summarize: - Postally used stamps are always without gum or on piece. - CTO are normally with gum CTO without gum should not be thrown and can be considered in the same way as used stamps as soon as the value is not so high, still should not be thrown but there status must be underlined when the catalog value is high... That's my opinion. And hinged CTO must be washed!
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Mr. H
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Member - APS #129381
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What I collect: US, Netherlands, Whatever suits my fancy.
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Post by Mr. H on Feb 1, 2021 21:41:59 GMT
If you look at a Scott catalog under Russia there is a note regarding CTOs. They note that the values for used shown are for CTOs and that postally used are worth more.
For me I would include them in my albums, preferably without the gum, and replace them later if found a postally used copy.
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ameis33
Member
What's in a name? That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet
Posts: 505
What I collect: Poland and Italy Republic
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Post by ameis33 on Feb 1, 2021 21:45:49 GMT
I'm on the same wave lenght... On some catalog there is a different symbol for used and for CTOs...
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brightonpete
Departed
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On a hike at Goodrich-Loomis
Posts: 5,110
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Post by brightonpete on Feb 1, 2021 22:10:18 GMT
I can't help but wonder why they would print on gummed paper if they are going to be sold at cut rates to dealers. Save the expense of having gummed paper!
Things that make me go, 'hmmm!"
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ameis33
Member
What's in a name? That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet
Posts: 505
What I collect: Poland and Italy Republic
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Post by ameis33 on Feb 1, 2021 22:29:00 GMT
Let's see it from another point of view. Which is the cost of printing stamps (even with gum)?
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Ryan
Member
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,720
What I collect: If I have a catalogue for it, I collect it. And I have many catalogues ....
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Post by Ryan on Feb 2, 2021 20:57:11 GMT
I can't help but wonder why they would print on gummed paper if they are going to be sold at cut rates to dealers. Save the expense of having gummed paper! There are some countries which do use ungummed paper for many / most of their CTOs - Hungary comes to mind, as do North Korea & Liberia & North Vietnam. Mongolian stamps which were printed in Hungary are also usually without gum, but their later issues are printed somewhere else (anybody know where?) and they do have gum. Lots of countries used stamps which were printed in Cuba, and most of those are without gum as well. Hungary actually used a different thinner paper for their older CTO stamps - if you can find postally used stamps they are usually on a noticeably thicker paper than you see on the CTO stamps. Ryan
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