Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Nov 5, 2018 22:57:29 GMT
Inspired by Jens's ( barbu ) recent posts in the Whatcha Been Stamping? thread, I realized that although I had submitted scans of stamps from Baden as part of my last TSF Newsletter article, I never actually posted them on the Forum. In looking at the history, the German state of Baden has been through many territorial changes over the past 200-300 years, the most recent of which was its combination with the states of Wuerttemberg and Hohenzollern to form the state of Baden-Wuerttemberg in 1952. The map below, taken from Wikipedia, shows the many territorial changes in Baden over the past several centuries. The classic stamps were issued from 1851-1868, which corresponds to the period of the Grand Duchy of Baden, which existed from 1803-1918. Karlsruhe was the capital of the Grand Duchy of Baden, and also happens to be the place where I acquired the stamps. Map image credit: By Baden-1802-1819.svg: *Baden.png: ziegelbrennerderivative work: Testtubederivative work: Testtube This file was derived from: Baden-1802-1819.svg:, GFDL, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=23771729 Baden, Sc 2, 3-kreuzer black on yellow, and Sc 4, 9-kreuzer black on lilac rose, issued in 1851-1852. According to Scott, first printings on thin paper have significantly higher catalogue values, especially in certain cases. I also acquired copies of Sc 1 and Sc 3 from this first series, but do not have comparable scans to post them together for the moment. That will be a project for the year-end holidays in California.
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Admin
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Post by Admin on Nov 5, 2018 23:06:08 GMT
[Admin Note: This and the post that follows were originally made by barbu in the Whatcha Been Stamping thread. They have been duplicated in this thread to complement material posted by Beryllium Guy .]
Last night I had the wife away, finally leaving some quality time for stamping (until 0500 AM - hehe), here is the result on Blaamand´s custom made pages:
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Admin
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Post by Admin on Nov 5, 2018 23:07:52 GMT
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blaamand
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Currently creating custom pages until 1940.
Posts: 1,459
What I collect: Worldwide - Stamps and Postmarks - not enough time...
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Post by blaamand on Nov 6, 2018 11:40:40 GMT
Very nice post Beryllium Guy Interesting historical chart for Baden. The amount of territorial changes in Europe in general at that time is mind-blowing. Steve - good idea to shift barbu's Baden pages to this thread
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2018 21:46:24 GMT
Baden #1 The first postage stamps showed a numeral design for which the first stamps of Bavaria were used as a model. For the 1851 issue, one die was made for the frame, which was partly type-set, and then dies for the centers for each of the four values, lkr, 3kr. 6kr, 9kr, On the sides the inscription reads "Deutsch-Oestr. Postal Union "(left), "Contract v. G. April 1850 "(right.)
Quantity Issued 1st edition 1a (291780) - printed 02.51 2nd edition 1b (445000) - printed 08.51 Printed in sheets of 45; five rows of nine (1st May 1851), later in sheets of 50 (August 1851) Baden was actually one of the few countries which purposefully used "secret marks" on its first stamps to facilitate identifying forgeries. They were little notches cut in the original die for each value and therefore visible on all issued stamps. Only a few officials knew of these. Each of the first issued has a notch in a particular location. Secret mark on the #1a, 1b & 5
Genuine 1a Genuine 1b
Baden stamps despite their fairly intricate design were forged in great numbers. Type 1a forgery No secret mark The background around the 1 is uneven and distorted The side letters are taller The corner elements are very different
Type 1b forgery No secret mark
The 1 is poorly made
The side letters are much taller
and the dots are missing The corner elements are very different There is also the issue of a reprint and the ingenious "Coffee Fake" on the next post.....
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renden
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What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Dec 19, 2018 22:45:51 GMT
Love Baden and expect some from blaamand , my Norge friend. All nice cancels (CDS) will return to him as he specializes in them and I am a "backer" only !! René Worked on Wurttemberg today and have a nice 53 inventoried..........East of Baden (map)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2018 23:25:43 GMT
Continued from above....
The 1867 Reprint Roughly 5000 5X4 sheets were printed and the value is appreciably lower. They are on thick paper with a white crackly gum. They tend to have a yellowish appearance. The imprint is generally more pronounced than the originals They are very different under UV light. Since they have all the traits of the originals, collectors need to be wary of them.
The "Coffee Forgeries" The Mi 1b was printed in one edition of 445,000 stamps, by comparison the Mi 5 has 5,123,100 stamps printed in five editions. Some books indicate the secret mark is missing but this is false.
Genuine Mi 5 Forgers took to soaking the Mi 5 in a strong tea or coffee to give it the appearance of a 1B Mi 5 forgery of a Mi 1b Adulterated Mi 5's are discovered by the paper and especially UV light. The most important feature, however, is the deep black, crisp and even print of the black color. Classics often have a story to tell.
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renden
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Posts: 8,705
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Mar 20, 2019 17:36:46 GMT
Found my only Baden stamp, Sc # 20 1862-65 with a LÖRRACH cancellation, to complement the others in this great thread, on this 3 Kreuzer rose Perf 10 specimen. This one will go to the brothers (again), Jon and Jens blaamand barbu in future mailing. Isn't fun to have friends in Norway René
RetroReveal image Lörrach is a city in southwest Germany, in the valley of the Wiese, close to the French and the Swiss borders - as well shown in the left lower corner of the MAP in Post #1. It is the capital of the district of Lörrach in Baden-Württemberg.
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blaamand
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Currently creating custom pages until 1940.
Posts: 1,459
What I collect: Worldwide - Stamps and Postmarks - not enough time...
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Post by blaamand on Mar 20, 2019 20:33:20 GMT
Great stuff renden. Your postmark is most welcome!! Thanks in advance
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blaamand
Member
Currently creating custom pages until 1940.
Posts: 1,459
What I collect: Worldwide - Stamps and Postmarks - not enough time...
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Post by blaamand on Mar 20, 2019 20:35:08 GMT
@falshung - That's a great and interesting write-up on Baden #1, thanks for sharing. Seems I've been failing to visit this forum regularily lately, didn't see your December post until now!
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renden
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Posts: 8,705
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Mar 20, 2019 21:26:06 GMT
Great stuff renden . Your postmark is most welcome!! Thanks in advance And I do not do this for "free" Jon - I expect a trip to Norway in the coming months (kidding)
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blaamand
Member
Currently creating custom pages until 1940.
Posts: 1,459
What I collect: Worldwide - Stamps and Postmarks - not enough time...
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Post by blaamand on Mar 21, 2019 0:41:32 GMT
🤣😉
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mikeclevenger
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What I collect: Ohio Tax Stamps, Ohio & Georgia Revenues, US Revenues, US FDC's, & Germany Classics
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Post by mikeclevenger on Oct 5, 2019 12:26:38 GMT
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mikeclevenger
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Posts: 887
What I collect: Ohio Tax Stamps, Ohio & Georgia Revenues, US Revenues, US FDC's, & Germany Classics
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Post by mikeclevenger on Oct 5, 2019 12:29:37 GMT
Now to to the sunny side of the street: I really think the hunt for cancellatiions is the best part of our hobby. Here is the result after filling in customs made pages for the Barred Numeral cancellations of my tiny Baden collection: Cancellations wise, Baden is one of those "countries" myself and Blaamand can not resist making custom made pages for CDS´s as well! As you can see, now there is no excuse not buying more Baden "fill in stuff": How do other of you gentlemen out there - interested in cancellations - organize these treasures? Have an excellent stampy weekend folks! - for me there is a small local stamp auction tomorrow in Grimstad to enlighten a dust November day_) Where did you get these pages from? I would love to have them, as it would be great fun to try to fill them.
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mikeclevenger
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Posts: 887
What I collect: Ohio Tax Stamps, Ohio & Georgia Revenues, US Revenues, US FDC's, & Germany Classics
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Post by mikeclevenger on Oct 5, 2019 12:30:27 GMT
There is also the issue of a reprint and the ingenious "Coffee Fake" on the next post..... All of your pictures are gone.
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blaamand
Member
Currently creating custom pages until 1940.
Posts: 1,459
What I collect: Worldwide - Stamps and Postmarks - not enough time...
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Post by blaamand on Oct 8, 2019 14:58:59 GMT
mikeclevenger - Which of the Baden pages are you asking for? The ones for the stamps, for the Numeral cancellations or for the CDS cancellations - or all of them? I made the DIY pages for stamps of Baden and can share them if you fancy. The pages for numeral and CDS postmarks were both made by my brother barbu . He is not overly active in this forum so don't hold your breath for him to respond to this thread If you fancy the cancellation pages I can ask him if he like to share with you.
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mikeclevenger
Member
Posts: 887
What I collect: Ohio Tax Stamps, Ohio & Georgia Revenues, US Revenues, US FDC's, & Germany Classics
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Post by mikeclevenger on Oct 9, 2019 8:51:42 GMT
mikeclevenger - Which of the Baden pages are you asking for? The ones for the stamps, for the Numeral cancellations or for the CDS cancellations - or all of them? I made the DIY pages for stamps of Baden and can share them if you fancy. The pages for numeral and CDS postmarks were both made by my brother barbu . He is not overly active in this forum so don't hold your breath for him to respond to this thread If you fancy the cancellation pages I can ask him if he like to share with you. Hey, I would love to have them all. I really enjoy the German colony stamps and would look forward to attempting to fill the pages.
Thanks, Mike.
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blaamand
Member
Currently creating custom pages until 1940.
Posts: 1,459
What I collect: Worldwide - Stamps and Postmarks - not enough time...
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Post by blaamand on Oct 10, 2019 6:41:21 GMT
mikeclevenger - Sure Mike, I can share them with you, please check your PM. I agree, I enjoy the stamps and postmarks of German States to, they are very interesting areas to collect
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stainlessb
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qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
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What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Apr 2, 2020 17:18:59 GMT
This have been posten previoulsy, but just for the heck of it, more from recent acquisition- I'm almost wondering if these might be forgeries (seems like a simple design to mimic)
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renden
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Posts: 8,705
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Apr 2, 2020 17:27:48 GMT
stainlessb Stan, those rudimentary looking Rural Postage Due Stamps from Baden Sc LJ1 and LJ3 woud be perf 10, 1862 !! Too bad they have suffered a little bit (!) as their CV is quite impressive - René - but forged cancellations exist (Scott cat)
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stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Apr 2, 2020 17:36:50 GMT
perf is 10
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renden
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Posts: 8,705
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Apr 2, 2020 18:00:07 GMT
Stan a you may have read in Scott, the value of postmarked LJ1-LJ3 postage Due Baden stamps is way higher than Mint ones, which explains the possible forged ones - I hope one of our Germany experts will give his opinion on your stamps - René
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randomjoe
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What I collect: a random collection of mostly early things, and other stuff that I like... but especially Baden.
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Post by randomjoe on Apr 29, 2020 19:42:44 GMT
Stan a you may have read in Scott, the value of postmarked LJ1-LJ3 postage Due Baden stamps is way higher than Mint ones, which explains the possible forged ones - I hope one of our Germany experts will give his opinion on your stamps - René Yes, indeed... and there are only 70 used copies of the 12 Kr known! These, alas, are both forged postmarks; although the 12 Kr is a possible postmark type for this era, it just doesn't look right... and the other isn't a Baden cancel at all. The good news is that both seem to be genuine stamps underneath...
Incidentally, they're fascinating stamps, these... they were called 'rural postage dues' but basically served as additional payment to remote settlements. As far as I'm aware, that's a slightly different purpose to any stamps ever issued from elsewhere, but may well be wrong on that. It also means they were often cancelled by hand, with a pen or crayon cross that's impossible to verify unless it's on cover. Annoying, really.
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randomjoe
**Member**
Inactive
Posts: 8
What I collect: a random collection of mostly early things, and other stuff that I like... but especially Baden.
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Post by randomjoe on Apr 29, 2020 19:59:51 GMT
Great to see so much interest in Baden, everyone! I just love the design of these stamps, ever since finding my first few ragged ones in an old Schaubek album.
I now have quite an extensive collection, in three albums (including covers, cancellations, fiscals, railway stamps, wafer seals and weird random stuff!). When it comes to the Michel listings, I'm yet to find one shade (the 13b silver-grey), and have a reasonable number of the plate flaws, paper varieties, forgeries, cancellation types, and so on. I'll randomly show you some of the fun stuff, but if anyone would like to see something specific, just let me know. And if anyone has one of the watermarked ones, please, please show me what they look like - I'm yet to find any, and it's driving me nuts!
Here's a genuine Michel 1a, for starters. It has an insanely sharp imprint that's totally distinctive once you know it. I've now picked up seven of these, all from eBay auctions where the seller had overlooked it. (I've heard it said that all the genuine ones are signed by now, but it seems that's just not true - it's amazing what is still out there, unrecognised!)
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Apr 29, 2020 20:11:30 GMT
Hey, Joe ( randomjoe), many thanks for the great post on the early Baden material. Yes, there is a lot of interest in it here on TSF. In late 2018, a former member posted lots of good info on this thread, starting with this post: thestampforum.boards.net/post/66929/threadUnfortunately, since his untimely departure, many of his images went with him. Can you look over his posts and try to replicate them again with the images? If you can, that would be a great service to all of us who are devotees of early Baden stamps. You seem like someone who might have the knowledge to "fill in the blanks" so to speak. Many thanks!
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renden
Member
Posts: 8,705
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Apr 29, 2020 20:17:00 GMT
I agree with Chris's Beryllium Guy POST !! René and we all have forgeries in our collection(s)
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randomjoe
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What I collect: a random collection of mostly early things, and other stuff that I like... but especially Baden.
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Post by randomjoe on Apr 29, 2020 20:19:40 GMT
Shouldn't be a problem, Beryllium Guy! I did quite an extensive thread on these on another forum, along very similar lines, so have a lot of the images already. I also spent some time looking at the 'coffee forgeries' and trying to find fool-proof ways to test for them (it's not as easy as the books say!).
I ougyht to be able to help with a reference for all the colour shades as well as things like the paper types. Let me work up to it and plan the outline, but yes - that's certainly something I'm very happy to do.
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Post by marking on Apr 30, 2020 0:57:53 GMT
I will do some posts here IF there is a forgery issue or a missing item otherwise this will do for now.... The designers included secret marks in the respective issues which 99% will determine if a stamp is genuine A 1b with a 159 WIESLOCH postmark An 1867 Reprint on darker thicker paper with different gum A Mi 5 which should not fool anyone - the secret mark is there though some catalogs say it is missing The color & paper are different and the stamp shows more die wear The 1 has a lot of speckles and the background is not sharp
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mikeclevenger
Member
Posts: 887
What I collect: Ohio Tax Stamps, Ohio & Georgia Revenues, US Revenues, US FDC's, & Germany Classics
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Post by mikeclevenger on Apr 30, 2020 13:26:53 GMT
And if anyone has one of the watermarked ones, please, please show me what they look like - I'm yet to find any, and it's driving me nuts! Hey, Which ones can be watermarked and what is the watermark?
Have a great day. Mike.
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randomjoe
**Member**
Inactive
Posts: 8
What I collect: a random collection of mostly early things, and other stuff that I like... but especially Baden.
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Post by randomjoe on Apr 30, 2020 15:48:19 GMT
And if anyone has one of the watermarked ones, please, please show me what they look like - I'm yet to find any, and it's driving me nuts! Hey, Which ones can be watermarked and what is the watermark?
Have a great day. Mike.
Hi Mike! Michel lists the 'Naht-Wz' (translating as 'stitch-watermark', or 'seam-watermark') as occurring in Mi. 2b, 3b, 4b and 5-8.
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