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Post by navylee1970 on Feb 20, 2019 21:52:23 GMT
Hi, I have sorted all my 4 lettered penny reds and now working on the stars but struggling to be fair. I am going to add some pics and would welcome pointers on what I should be looking for Regards Lee
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Post by navylee1970 on Feb 20, 2019 22:02:02 GMT
Queen. Victoria large crown watermark DJ perf
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Post by navylee1970 on Feb 20, 2019 22:04:44 GMT
Another Victoria penny red large crown watermark 2 letters (RF)
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Post by navylee1970 on Feb 20, 2019 22:09:44 GMT
And one more for tonight, Victoria penny red on cover 3 perf edges paper has a blue tinge. The cancellation on the rear of the cover is jan 1856
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Post by navylee1970 on Feb 20, 2019 22:12:52 GMT
I will post the small crown watermarks tomorrow
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Post by feebletodix on Feb 21, 2019 11:36:24 GMT
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Post by navylee1970 on Feb 21, 2019 11:48:40 GMT
Many thanks feebletodix I will have a good read of that tonight
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janetc
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Post by janetc on Feb 21, 2019 12:58:11 GMT
feebletodix Thank you for that link. I have bookmarked it so when I get back to GB that will come in handy
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Post by navylee1970 on Feb 22, 2019 9:08:50 GMT
And one more for tonight, Victoria penny red on cover 3 perf edges paper has a blue tinge. The cancellation on the rear of the cover is jan 1856 I can only count 13 perforations on this (horizontally), am I counting correctly ?
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Post by feebletodix on Feb 22, 2019 10:23:22 GMT
Counting perforations without a gauge is time consuming and is the number of perforations in 20mm. The general consensus of opinion is that these came in 14 and 16 perf, which by your count of 13 suggests this is in fact a 14 perf and neatly misplaced as well. It is so much easier plating the later issues where they put the number in the border
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Post by navylee1970 on Feb 23, 2019 22:53:03 GMT
Hi all, can someone check my attempt at identifying this one. Here is what I think I am looking at - using the table posted on this thread Die 2 Alphabet 4 (because it looks crisp and neat) white paper perfs = 14 Large crown watermark based on these details I am saying its C12 / SG42 (plates 50-51) happy to be told no (but please say why)
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Post by navylee1970 on Feb 23, 2019 23:36:24 GMT
my next attempt at identifying a penny red star Plate 2 (I thought plate 1 at first but the "Williams" line circled in yellow guessing alphabet 3 as the letters are small 14 perf, large crown wmk, white paper so either C8A (SG37) or C10 (SG38-41)
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Post by navylee1970 on Feb 24, 2019 0:04:40 GMT
once I have got the perforated ones identified I will move on to my penny red imperforates - they may be a little bit ropey but you have to start somewhere. In the attached image the bottom right seems to have very thin paper - almost like a newspaper wrapper thickness but the watermark is good and the borders are good.
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zipper
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Post by zipper on Feb 24, 2019 0:09:00 GMT
And, it's on blue paper.
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Sept 20, 2019 23:23:28 GMT
Seems like a good thread to add this- I have looked through SG spec ialized with little success. I would have thought the top left corner would have been something that narrowed down which plate it might be, but i only see coners with one line extending into the margin it is on white paper I believe Postmark is Birmingham (though I'm not sure how helpful that is.... any tip, links with greater details, (help) appreciated
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Sept 20, 2019 23:41:18 GMT
and I'll ad this pair- the right top corner star is quite "vacant", and the "H" top/bottom ..."feet" (for lackof a better description are pretty much run together. the back has 420 or (?) 426 written on it which may be in reference to the postmark, which appears to be (upside down) but an oval topped diamond and you can make out a 4 and what appears to be the base of a 2 discoloration from the envelope this was affixed to??
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vikingeck
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Post by vikingeck on Sept 21, 2019 16:37:44 GMT
Nice pair stainlessb. I can't help at all with the plating but at first glance Stan what strikes me as interesting is the postmark on your pair . 1. It is struck in BLUE INK that is unusual and a Plus 2. Not an "oval topped" diamond but a numeral in a diamond which should be an Irish cancel like this Number 420 would be SWORDS ( Dublin) or 426 could be TEMPLEMORE (Tipperary)
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Sept 22, 2019 1:48:13 GMT
What is th esignifigance of blue ink?
and any suggestions for a reference to help with determining plates? or is t mainly based on flaws?
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Sept 22, 2019 18:06:47 GMT
As I read and re-read all referneces I have (with SG specialized apparently the best of what H have. The pair (above) is Die 1 Alphabet 1 (the H is the main clue, Alphabet !! also has a connected base H but it is slightly slanted)), and based on postmark dates after 1844-45, narrowing down to somewhere between plates 36- 131... (?) Here's another I'll take a stab at.... (for better of for worse) Maltese Cross cancelation ended ~ 1844- which likely puts the example below somewhere between plate 12 and 35- just now looking at www.maltesex.com/plating/ and... it looks like it may be plate 11 . Cancellation appears to be Dursley (evidenced by heavy outer frame and inner start with one point noticeably longer small crown watermark if any of this seems incorrect, please chine in as i'm just starting/trying to wrap my arms around this!
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Londonbus1
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What I collect: Cinderellas and some Ephemera from Great Britain, France and Israel plus a few beautiful bits from elsewhere !! Topical interests include Flags & Judaica, the latter with an emphasis on the Jewish National Fund.
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Post by Londonbus1 on Sept 22, 2019 20:27:17 GMT
Can't help with the plating as I have forgotten much of what I learned since giving up on stamps. And I haven't done much studying on that front for some years. I will look for my notes but they too may have found their way to pastures new. Plus, all my literature as long since been passed on. But I'd say the cancellation is more Leeds than Dursley. I found checking out the Maltese Cross cancels to be a lot of fun.
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Sept 23, 2019 0:10:38 GMT
This might shed some more light philatelicsannex.org/reference/maltese_cross_postmarks.pdfLeeds has more rounded ends of the outer cross. Also Dursley is listed as 17mm x 19mm. It is hard to tell as excess ink makes "where to measure: somewhat dubious- though there is the faint extension of the inner start point opposite the one that looks longer but with all due respect to LB1, until i can find more comparison/reference/examples I'll move it in the TBD category and to keep a conversation going.... anybody have any ideas what this cancellation might be?
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vikingeck
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Post by vikingeck on Sept 23, 2019 8:24:52 GMT
In the early part of the 1800s there were "Two Penny Receiving Houses" where one could drop off letters when the post Office was closed. For 2d charge the letter was taken on to the Central PO for onward transmission. There were 100+ such houses in London .
The service was redundant from 1840 with the new Uniform Penny Post and 1d Stamps but such offices could still handle mail and would still have the handstamp. They were not supposed to cancel the stamp but if the letter was local delivery they probably did not send it on to the Head office to save time. The Handstamps occasionally continued in use until 1850s so they are found occasionally cancelling the stamp.
T.P = Two Penny post ………..ghga... Is an unusual combination of letters and should be straightforward to locate from the list of offices ( which I don't have!) possibly something "…..gate"
The cancel is scarce and in spite of the damaged corner it is worth a few ££
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Sept 23, 2019 13:45:54 GMT
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tomiseksj
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Post by tomiseksj on Sept 23, 2019 14:13:58 GMT
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vikingeck
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Post by vikingeck on Sept 23, 2019 15:49:10 GMT
Well done , How did you do that ? I like Highgate as it is in the London area and probably had a Two Penny Receiving house . Definite possibility ! Loughgall I feel is unlikely as it is rural Northern Ireland and not within easy distance of and urban Head Office
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tomiseksj
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Post by tomiseksj on Sept 23, 2019 15:57:18 GMT
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Sept 23, 2019 16:16:47 GMT
thanks for the input!
from the GBPS site - Highgate shows up as A47 for barred cancellations... but it indicates it is in Jamaica County (?? download C), but the London Alphabetical list (Download H) indicates Middlesex county, and postmark Number in circle (number 1) beginning in 1844.
what this means I'm not sure, but I hope there are enough tell-tale marks in the printing to ID the plate -
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Sept 26, 2019 1:02:10 GMT
I'm having one of those frustrating moments- I either deleted the e-mail i sent myself with a link to a resource... or I actually downloaded... but saved it God knows where (I have 4 TB of disk storage, split between 3 drives...) I recently saw a reference wwith a very good breakdown of the London Inland (oval diamond) cancellations, breaking down by number of lines (#5 would be11 bars 3-6-2, first #10 ()L-R) would be 14 bars 2-10-2, etc #89 likely does not belong as more a circle... and possible 27 also does not belong.... If anyone happens to recall seeing this type of reference somewhere...(I know I didn't imagine this), please chine in thanks
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vikingeck
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Post by vikingeck on Sept 26, 2019 7:55:56 GMT
thanks for the input!
from the GBPS site - Highgate shows up as A47 for barred cancellations... but it indicates it is in Jamaica County (?? download C), but the London Alphabetical list (Download H) indicates Middlesex county, and postmark Number in circle (number 1) beginning in 1844.
what this means I'm not sure, but I hope there are enough tell-tale marks in the printing to ID the plate -
without seeing the reference , it does not make sense to me. There is no Jamaica (county!!!!!) in GB.. I think you are mis reading the info. barred numeral cancels with A reference usually indicate a British Post office overseas which had not at that time issued stamps , eg A25 got Malta ,A26 for Gibraltar . The island of Jamaica had about 20 or30 offices and A47 was used at Highgate Jamaica . This is quite a different place from your stamp with T.P. ghga. The numbers in diamond were issued to all the inner London offices and those in a circle to outer London districts, as you note from 1844 onwards. Your T.P is a late use possibly in the period 1841 to 1844 before the numeral cancel was issued. I do do not have dates for Highgate office nor it’s status so I am guessing that before 1840 it was just a receiving house but by 1844 with the increased volume of letters brought about by the postal reform and the recent much reduced cost to one penny Highgate must have stepped up a grade and become a sub post office with its own numeral and date stamp. Middlesex is one of the counties surrounding inner London , called the Home Counties , nowadays making the Greater London area
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Sept 27, 2019 1:16:17 GMT
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