Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2019 21:43:37 GMT
Thurn & Taxis is not the name of a country but of a Princely House, Thurn and Taxis won world fame by the privilege of operating a monopoly for postal services in a part of Germany and neighboring countries. The field of its operations extended to states in both Northern and Southern Germany. In the Northern States the currency was in silbergroschen while in South Germany it was in kreuzer, thus necessitating two series of stamps.
I have seen that certain authors have noted there are no T & T forgeries. This is FALSE. although the intricate design did discourage forgeries, they do exist. As well stamps that are trimmed and ones with fake cancels are abundant. Plus the ever present reprints. |
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mikeclevenger
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What I collect: Ohio Tax Stamps, Ohio & Georgia Revenues, US Revenues, US FDC's, & Germany Classics
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Post by mikeclevenger on Mar 15, 2019 13:22:46 GMT
OK, So, this is a new area of collecting for me. I have bought a lot of Germany Collections and I am putting my collection together now. Thurn & Taxis is just one of the many parts of my Germany collection, but I really want to make sure I only put good, original stamps in my book. How do you know if a cancellation is original or not? Here is just one on my stock pages of Thurn & Taxis. Which stamps are real and which ones actually have good postmarks? Any help would be appreciated. This is scanned @ 600 dpi, so it can be blown up to look at. I have a 1200 DPI scan, but it is to big to upload. LOL. Thanks, Mike.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2019 15:38:02 GMT
OK, So, this is a new area of collecting for me. I have bought a lot of Germany Collections and I am putting my collection together now. Thurn & Taxis is just one of the many parts of my Germany collection, but I really want to make sure I only put good, original stamps in my book. How do you know if a cancellation is original or not? Here is just one on my stock pages of Thurn & Taxis. Which stamps are real and which ones actually have good postmarks?
I would need a very good quality individual stamp scan which will be a lot for both parties as negatives of each are preferable if the postmark is even visible. The bigger issue is Reprints which are very numerous and not easy to spot (anything in good condition with a bright image and without postmarks is suspicious) . Click on the image below to see the full size of just a few reprints
As for postmarks, I have all the genuine ones which I will send for you to check.
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mikeclevenger
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What I collect: Ohio Tax Stamps, Ohio & Georgia Revenues, US Revenues, US FDC's, & Germany Classics
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Post by mikeclevenger on Mar 15, 2019 17:49:14 GMT
As for postmarks, I have all the genuine ones which I will send for you to check.
OK, Thanks. I guess if they don't look exactly like the ones you have, they are fake. That works for me. I just wan tot be sure of what I have. Thanks, Mike. |
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hrdoktorx
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What I collect: France (and French territories), Africa, Canada, USA, Germany, Guatemala, stamps about science, flags, maps, stamps on stamps...
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Post by hrdoktorx on Jul 11, 2020 8:48:17 GMT
Also received today, this stamp, which I am told is Thurn und Taxis MiNr. 40, but can hardly differentiate from MiNr. 50:  What I understand from my catalogs is that the difference is whether the line perforations are on the white or the coloured parts of the dash division line. Can anyone confirm? |
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vikingeck
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What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Jul 11, 2020 9:10:00 GMT
I am ready to be corrected but that is not what I understood the difference to mean . My German is very weak but I do not take it to mean the location of cuts in relation to the coloured marks is important.
I read Michel and Philex to say simply there are two issues rouletted with cuts. 1865 there are no coloured lines in the roulettes and 1866/7 there are coloured lines in the roulettes .
I think Mi 40 has no coloured lines I believe yours is Mi 50.
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jul 11, 2020 10:00:58 GMT
Xavier ( hrdoktorx ), thanks for your post. It's a beautiful-looking stamp. Wouldn't mind having one of those for my collection!  I don't have a Michel to check, so I took a look in Scott, my 2008 Classic Specialized Catalogue 1840-1940, to see what's there. Based on what I found, I have to agree with Alex ( vikingeck ). Scott lists #26 (Mi 40) as 3-sgr bister "rouletted" issued in 1865, and #32 (Mi 50) as 3-sgr bister "rouletted in colored lines" issued in 1866. So, I would conclude that the difference is simply supposed to be the presence of colored lines or not. Since your example has the colored lines, it seems pretty clear that it is the later issue, and not the earlier one, as someone is purporting it to be. Hope maybe this helps a little. I don't have any of these myself, so I am sorry that I don't have any images to post. Perhaps mikeclevenger may be able to show examples of both issues side by side. Or maybe Ryan or PostmasterGS or classicalstamps or blaamand or others may be able to confirm. |
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cursus
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What I collect: Catalan Cinderellas. Used Switzerland, UK, Scandinavia, Germany & Austria. Postal History of Barcelona & Estonia. Catalonia pictorial postmarks.
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Post by cursus on Jul 11, 2020 10:32:47 GMT
Looking at Michel, I see the same as Vikingeck: Mi#40: "farblos" (no-colour) / Mi#50: "farbig" (with colour). So the stamp shown is Mi#50 not 40.
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Post by PostmasterGS on Jul 11, 2020 10:45:27 GMT
It has colored lines in the rouletting, so it's MiNr. 50.
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hrdoktorx
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What I collect: France (and French territories), Africa, Canada, USA, Germany, Guatemala, stamps about science, flags, maps, stamps on stamps...
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Post by hrdoktorx on Jul 11, 2020 12:40:11 GMT
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mikeclevenger
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What I collect: Ohio Tax Stamps, Ohio & Georgia Revenues, US Revenues, US FDC's, & Germany Classics
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Post by mikeclevenger on Jul 11, 2020 13:07:32 GMT
The difference between the two issues is that the second issue has small dashed lines where the perfs are. As you can see below, the left picture is Mi 40 and the right picture is Mi 50. The arrows on the Mi 40 show where the perfs have no dashed lines and the Mi 50 does have dashed lines. These are easy to determine which issue they are.
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vikingeck
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What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Jul 11, 2020 13:09:50 GMT
Here are some T&T which have languished unloved in a stockbook since I acquired them many years ago. He, who could ID these, has left the forum ! so I don't know if they are genuine or reprints ( They have gum and if I read Michel correct the reprints do not have gum )  Anyway I have no need of these and am about to list them as an Auction for 48hours in the sales thread to cover my postage . |
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salentin
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collecting Germany,where I live and about 20 more countries,half of them in Asia east of the Indus
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Post by salentin on Jul 11, 2020 17:10:39 GMT
Here again a pair of Michel no.40 and a single of no.50:
There are also slight colour-differences between the two issues.
The 1865 issue (Mi.no.40) was printed and afterwards rouletted.Usually the rouletting is off centre.
The 1866 issue however was produced in a different way: print and rouletting was done in one go. Because of that the centering is always perfect. In order for doing that in one go,it was necessary to work with a much higher printing-pressure. That resulted in (negative) embossing-like pictures,to be seen on the back of the stamps. This "embossing" is the best indication to verify false stamps of the 1862-1864 issue,what were made by cutting off the rouletting from the 1866 stamps. All very well centered mint 1862-1864 stamps should be looked at with caution.
I like the stamps of Thurn & Taxis very much.Beautiful designs and affordable.Where else can you find today stamps from the 1860th in mint never hinged condition at prices well below € 5.- ?
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hrdoktorx
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What I collect: France (and French territories), Africa, Canada, USA, Germany, Guatemala, stamps about science, flags, maps, stamps on stamps...
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Post by hrdoktorx on Jul 11, 2020 20:05:34 GMT
Here again a pair of Michel no.40 and a single of no.50:  , salentin, very informative! |
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blaamand
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Currently creating custom pages until 1940.
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What I collect: Worldwide - Stamps and Postmarks - not enough time...
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Post by blaamand on Jul 12, 2020 9:25:03 GMT
Thanks for you latest post salentin - I echo hrdoktorx , very informative. Helpful to know about the difference in embossing. Also helpful to know the print and rouletting was done in one go for the 1866 issue, so that the centering is always perfect. I have always been suspicious to my copies, as they have looked too 'perfect' for being this old stamps, but now you have just explained the reason. We live and learn  |
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mikeclevenger
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What I collect: Ohio Tax Stamps, Ohio & Georgia Revenues, US Revenues, US FDC's, & Germany Classics
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Post by mikeclevenger on Jul 12, 2020 12:07:52 GMT
Here are some T&T which have languished unloved in a stockbook since I acquired them many years ago. He, who could ID these, has left the forum ! so I don't know if they are genuine or reprints ( They have gum and if I read Michel correct the reprints do not have gum ) Good Morning. I have inspected these as best I can from the scans provided. The Southern District 3 Kreuzer, rose colored - bottom pic, may be a real copy, I just can't see it good enough in the scan, but the rest are all forgeries. I would think that the 3 Kreuzer is probably a forgery since the rest are all forgeries. The REPRINTS would have a large ND on the back and do not have gum. The FORGERIES have no markings on the back and do have gum, as they were meant to be sold as real stamps by the forgers. But remember, these forgeries were still made in the 1860's. Here is the best forgery site for Thurn & Taxis stamps: stampforgeries.com/forged-stamps-of-thurn-and-taxis/. Have a great day. Mike. |
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salentin
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collecting Germany,where I live and about 20 more countries,half of them in Asia east of the Indus
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Post by salentin on Jul 12, 2020 12:47:29 GMT
As far as I know,there are no forgeries of the last four issues Michel no.13 - 54,except of the 1/4 and 10 Silb.Gr. and 30 Kr.,nos.13,19 & 26. The 10 Silb.Gr. and the 30 Kreuzer are so cheap stamps,that I cannot really understand,what the forgerer had in mind to produce these.
There however plenty of forged cancellations,what make sence,when you look at a catalogue-prices.
Then there are the known forgeries from Turin (Torino) of the first issues Mi.no.1-12,black designs,printed on coloured papers.
These forgeries were made around 1900,shortly before the (official) reprints (what are dearer than the originals) were produced in 1909.
There are no forgeries of the two rouletted issues.
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stainlessb
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qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
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What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Jul 14, 2020 19:04:06 GMT
Here is my sum total of maybe real, maybe forgeries  |
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mikeclevenger
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Posts: 887
What I collect: Ohio Tax Stamps, Ohio & Georgia Revenues, US Revenues, US FDC's, & Germany Classics
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Post by mikeclevenger on Jul 16, 2020 9:09:33 GMT
Here is my sum total of maybe real, maybe forgeries I must say, a very nice lot of Thurn & Taxis stamps. They all look original except the yellowish 3, bottom row, third from left, it is a forgery. The rest are great examples of original stamps, as best I can tell from the scan provided. I compared them all to the forgery list and also to the originals, I have scans of. These are beautiful with some nice cancellations.
Have a great day.
Mike.
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salentin
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collecting Germany,where I live and about 20 more countries,half of them in Asia east of the Indus
Posts: 5,615
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Post by salentin on Jul 16, 2020 11:29:44 GMT
To give an idea for the evaluation of Thurn and Taxis stamps,here a page (part) from the Michel-catalogue:
To understand the text you must have a good knowledge of German.I try to translate:
Catalogue-prices are for average standard-commercial-quality stamps. They (the stamps) are slightly touched on one or two sides,but without paper damages. They are of almost original colour and have a clearly readable cancel. Untouched four-margin or even extreme wide margin (showing parts of neighbouring stamps) stamps,
as well stamps of fresh colour and with clear and well centered cancels command higher prices.
The illustrations on the left show quality of the cut,on the right the quality of the cancellation.
badly cut ca.80-90% discount unreadable cancellation
two or more sides cut (touched) ca.50% discount hardly readable,unclean cancels
slightly touched on one or two sides full catalogue price clean and clearly readable cancels
four margin stamps 50-100% surcharge clear almost centric cancels
extreme wide margines with parts up to 500% surcharge glas-clear near perfection centered cancels of neighbouring stamps
So far the text. Stamps cut into the design or of a poor general appearance are of little value.(Except,if they have a rare and valuable cancel.) Forgeries of stamps are uncommon and there are no known of the rouletted two sets,but cancellation-forgeries are plentiful. However if you follow a simple rule,that is,avoid all cancelled stamps,where mint ones are cheap and used ones expensive, unless with a positive expertise,you should be on the safe side. Another likely forgerie,this time of mint stamps,are cut off roullettings from the last set (1866), offered as stamps of the third series from 1862/64.
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Post by greaden on Jul 22, 2020 21:06:21 GMT
Northern District stamps from the 1850s:  |
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Post by greaden on Jul 22, 2020 21:10:04 GMT
Northern district from the 1860s, and also the 2 high value stamps:   |
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Post by greaden on Jul 22, 2020 21:10:49 GMT
The reprints, with a certificate from the Thurn and Taxis castle in Regensburg:  |
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Post by greaden on Jul 22, 2020 21:11:54 GMT
Postmarked Gera, in the Principality of Reuss-Gera, in Thuringia:  Supposedly, this is the longest known strip of this stamp. |
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Post by greaden on Jul 22, 2020 21:13:51 GMT
A cover, postmarked Stadthagen (333) in the Principality of Schaumburg-Lippe, which was west of Brunswick:  |
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Post by greaden on Jul 22, 2020 21:15:17 GMT
A cover from the TnT post office in Hamburg (300):  |
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Post by greaden on Jul 22, 2020 21:16:10 GMT
Postmarks from the Electorate of Hesse/ Hesse-Kassel:  |
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Post by greaden on Aug 6, 2020 18:06:52 GMT
Here is a draft of a page of postmarks on Northern District stamps of the principalities of Reuss-Greiz and Reuss-Gera. I will have to go back and fix some typos and edit the blurb on their historical significance.
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mikeclevenger
Member
Posts: 887
What I collect: Ohio Tax Stamps, Ohio & Georgia Revenues, US Revenues, US FDC's, & Germany Classics
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Post by mikeclevenger on Aug 7, 2020 12:17:32 GMT
I got a few more Thurn & Taxis this week. Not a bad lot, just cut very small for me, but they were cheap enough. I just wanted them for their cancellation mostly.
Have a great day.
Mike.
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hrdoktorx
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What I collect: France (and French territories), Africa, Canada, USA, Germany, Guatemala, stamps about science, flags, maps, stamps on stamps...
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Post by hrdoktorx on Dec 29, 2020 12:06:17 GMT
Also received today, Thurn & Taxis, MiNr. 31, on piece, 3 silver Groschen, light brown, imperforate:  |
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