Beryllium Guy
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Posts: 5,654 
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 22, 2019 12:50:15 GMT
Moderator Note: This thread was started in Feb-2019 with posts from the Japan: Stamps thread to discuss a specific "forgery or genuine" question, and then the thread name was revised in Jul-2021 to broaden the possibilities for posts to any questionable issues of classic Japan.
And the rest of Old Koban from my album; 8 Sen and 50 Sen. The remaining ones (3 Sen, 12 Sen and 45 Sen) are really tough, especially the latter two which may be pretty costly. Many thanks to Nelson (@falshung ), Werner ( salentin ), and Hironobu ( unechan ) for your excellent posts in the Japan: Stamps thread (http://thestampforum.boards.net/thread/1387/japan-stamps). Although I am a WW classics collector, I have long had a soft spot for the classics from Japan. I have many of the same stamps which have already been posted in that thread, but there aren't too many others that I can add which are not already there, except this one:  Japan, Sc 67, 45 Sen, carmine (later shown to be a forgery) Background Story: I got this stamp as part of a small collection of pre-1930 Japan stamps at the WESTPEX show in Apr-2017. It was my last purchase from the show, and I paid around $100 (USD) for a collection of approximately 40-50 stamps on some very old album pages. The dealer had already removed some premium individual stamps from the lot, so these were essentially regarded as the leftovers. I had not even noticed that this was in the collection when I bought it. I had spotted a couple of others which were of primary interest. When I finally removed all of the stamps from the album pages and soaked off the hinges from the ones that needed it and sorted the collection along with all of my other Japan stamps, I was surprised to find this one in there. If it is genuine, I can only imagine that the dealer missed seeing it there, too, or else he would have sold it as an individual item. The stamp is not in the best condition, as it has one pulled "tooth" near the bottom right corner and a straight edge across the top. I initially assumed that this was a natural straight edge of the sheet, but looking at the edge condition more closely, it almost looks trimmed. Any comments are welcome about the appearance of this stamp and whether it looks to be genuine or not.
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khj
Member 
Posts: 1,460
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Post by khj on Mar 22, 2019 13:41:04 GMT
While your pic has good resolution, I still can't tell because of the horizontal band of fading damage going across the middle of your stamp. But it appears that you may have a Sankō imitation. Please see the following link for the Koban issues to find the location of the Sankō inscription: Koban imitations |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2019 13:44:22 GMT
Re the Old Koban 45 Sen posted by Chris (beryllium guy), I am afraid that I can see traces of suspicious characters... I have compared the image with the genuine ones taken from the website of Takahashi Stamp. You are correct, the stamp is a probably a Wada forgery There appears to be a Sanko (circles) somewhat hidden in the leaves and 2 tell-tale dots (arrows) of a Wada forgery
The prominent serifs on the S & E of SEN are also typical.
The double circle cancel appears to be his Tokyo cancel
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2019 14:06:41 GMT
Moderator Note: This former member chose to delete most of his posted images when he left TSF. Unfortunately, I did not keep any copies of the images that originally appeared in this post, but I have found some others that I have put in as replacements, which hopefully convey the same idea, and preserve this post in its sequence in the discussion.
 Original Caption: a better view of the forgery with the same cancel and the hidden Sanko New Caption: Left: Genuine 45-Sen Koban Issue; Right: Maeda Forgery, Type 1, State 1 with Sanko positions indicated  A second image was originally posted without caption. New Caption: Left: Genuine 45-Sen Koban Issue; Right: Wada Forgery, Plate 13 with Sanko positions indicated
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Beryllium Guy
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Posts: 5,654
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 23, 2019 7:26:59 GMT
Re the Old Koban 45 Sen posted by Chris (beryllium guy), I am afraid that I can see traces of suspicious characters... I have compared the image with the genuine ones taken from the website of Takahashi Stamp.  As we compare the two (left is genuine), the alignment of "45" looks different (i.e. smaller and lower "5"), and the serifs in "SEN", especially for "S" and "E" look different (more obvious serif). As for perforations, Chris's stamp looks to be close to 11 (10 1/2 or more?), whereas the Old Koban 45S exist in 8 1/2 and 10 only. So looks like the stamp needs further investigation... Re the Old Koban 45 Sen, another clue seems to be in the cancellation; the double-circle type datestamp (二重丸型日付印）possibly from Tokyo. Japanese Stamp Specialized Catalogue Vol 3 (page 180) says that this cancellation on 45 Sen is listed as "-", i.e. it may exist but extremely rare. So putting together these observations might suggest that Chris's stamp is unfortunately to be very likely to be a forgery... - Hironobu Thank you very much for your comments, Hironobu. I have used the "Quote" feature to reproduce your two posts from the Japan: Stamps thread here in this new thread. |
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,654
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 23, 2019 7:37:50 GMT
Re the Old Koban 45 Sen posted by Chris (beryllium guy), I am afraid that I can see traces of suspicious characters... I have compared the image with the genuine ones taken from the website of Takahashi Stamp. You are correct, the stamp is a probably a Wada forgery Many thanks to unechan , @falshung , and more recently khj for identifying the 45-Sen Koban stamp I posted as a forgery. I am glad to know the truth, even when it is not good news. I suppose I shouldn't be too surprised, but somehow I thought that perhaps this one had a chance of being genuine. Anyway, it will now be moved out of my stamps of Japan and put with my growing collection of forgeries. I seem to be finding plenty of those in the recent months. Thank you very much to all for your help. |
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,654
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jul 6, 2021 21:46:56 GMT
Japan, 1875
Sc50, 45-Sen Goshawk IssueI recently saw the stamp shown below available on eBay. I didn't spot it until late in the auction, so I did not bid, and it sold very inexpensively (<$10 US). I am assuming that it is most likely a forgery or reproduction of some sort, but I did once have a forgery of this issue, that didn't look anything as nice as this copy. That forged stamp that I once had is now with Hironobu. So, can anyone tell me anything about this stamp from the image below? Hironobu ( unechan ) or Dave ( Philatarium ) or Morten ( classicalstamps ) or Kim ( khj ) or Werner ( salentin ) or anyone else..... Does it seem like a forgery, too? Or does it appear genuine, and I passed up a great bargain? All opinions welcome! 
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unechan
Member
Posts: 157
What I collect: pre WW2 Japan (mostly Meiji era classics and semi-classics); Japan revenue and cinderella; Germany infla
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Post by unechan on Jul 6, 2021 23:22:46 GMT
Chris, my quick observation on this 45 Sen syllabic “HA” ハ; - there’s no apparent “fake” inscription (such as “mozou” 模造 and “sanko” 参考), - perforation seems to be p11, - cancellation is double circle type, Tokyo. And there’s some problems... - The Specialized Catalogue of Japanese Hand Engraved Stamps (2007) states that, for this syllabic, perforation 11 exists but with small holes (e.g. p.11s), whereas your stamp is likely to be normal p.11; - the Catalogue also states that for this syllabic, double circle type cancel is hitherto not known (this stamp was intended to be used for overweighted foreign mail so very few examples for domestic mail, and they are also limited to syllabic “I” イ and “RO” ロ), - the format of the double circle datestamp is curious; it could be read as “十二年八” = (Meiji) “ 12 August” in anti clockwise manner, which contradicts to the clockwise manner of the double circular datestamp. The only example of this is is the rather notorious “Tokyo 12 8 Mozou” fake cancellation; ameblo.jp/yassanwinter/entry-12543424790.htmlThus I regrettably must conclude that this stamp is no genuine. Sorry for the bad news ! - Hironobu |
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REL1948
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Posts: 583
What I collect: 1840-Pre-Decimal, GB and Colonies, 1840 1 penny reds, Postal Histories
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Post by REL1948 on Jul 7, 2021 0:09:46 GMT
Hello Specialists,
I have a question regarding these forgeries in general. Why were these stamps forged in the first place? Was it to bypass government revenues back in the day or perhaps to create fakes later on to fool collectors? I'm not familiar with early Japanese stamps at all but I'm fascinated by their imagery. Are the original stamps valuable?
Rob
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,654
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jul 7, 2021 6:48:36 GMT
Thus I regrettably must conclude that this stamp is no genuine. Sorry for the bad news ! Thank you very much for your nicely explained opinion, Hironobu. In fact, this is not bad news for me at all, as I didn't buy the stamp! I saw this stamp on offer on eBay, and someone else bought it. So, I was curious to get an opinion about whether or not it might have been genuine, which you have now provided. Many thanks!  |
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unechan
Member
Posts: 157
What I collect: pre WW2 Japan (mostly Meiji era classics and semi-classics); Japan revenue and cinderella; Germany infla
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Post by unechan on Jul 7, 2021 8:50:15 GMT
Rob,
I understand that these forged classic stamps are primarily used as either space fillers for collectors or stamps for souvenir sheets sold to foreigners.
As most of the forgeries bear apparent inscriptions mentioning forgery (“Sanko” = reference material, “Mozou”=copy) and/or apparently unnatural cancel/ datestamps, I don’t think most of the forgeries were aimed at simply fooling collectors. There exists, however, some forgeries with extremely high level of reproduction, which apparently was aiming for fooling the collectors… real dangerous forgeries.
One thing about Japanese forgeries is that there’s no case for fooling the postage system except for the famous Kiku (chrysanthemum series) 10 Sen and 20 Sen case. These postal forgeries now are considered to be one of the rarity of Japanese stamps.
Japanese forgeries are well studied, and you can find lots of relevant reports and studies.
Hope this helps !
- Hironobu
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unechan
Member
Posts: 157
What I collect: pre WW2 Japan (mostly Meiji era classics and semi-classics); Japan revenue and cinderella; Germany infla
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Post by unechan on Jul 7, 2021 8:54:07 GMT
Chris,
Glad to hear you didn’t buy it ;-)
I personally think the stamp itself is pretty well made, so if the cancel was SON something about 10 bucks might be okay to enjoy the detail of the forger’s reproduction technique !
- Hironobu
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crisger
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Artist and Digital Creations
Posts: 102
What I collect: Japan 1890s -2012
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Post by crisger on Jun 9, 2022 23:30:37 GMT
unechan, @beryllium Guy, khj thank you all for these posts and this thread, which Beryllium Guy suggested to me, i am in the process of studying and culling my collection of Japanese stamps from the earliest period and this will be of great help much appreciated. Chris
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And the rest of Old Koban from my album; 8 Sen and 50 Sen. 
