stainlessb
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qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
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What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Apr 18, 2019 20:20:50 GMT
I think a new thread is in order... and I will try and stay strictly on topic! I think I've finally determined (maybe) how to decipher plate numbers but...just to double check... Is this plate 71? the opposite side is faded/worn and I can't really see anything If anyone has clear scans of the Penny reds showing plate numbers, please share! !
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stainlessb
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qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Apr 18, 2019 21:13:22 GMT
here's a 2400 dpi scan across the middle - left side shows a clear "4" but the area in the scroll work below where the other number should be (?) is blacked out by the cancellation, although the scroll field above seems to have the lower portion of what could be a "6" or "8"... or even a "3" ( but this doesn't make sense either). The right side appears to show a "4" above an "8" (both are faint). Plate #'s for the 1864 Penny Reds started with plate 71- 84 seems likely, but the numbers are reversed on the right side (corner letters are R K if that is of importance) engraving error? or am I missing something?
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Ryan
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Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,720
What I collect: If I have a catalogue for it, I collect it. And I have many catalogues ....
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Post by Ryan on Apr 18, 2019 21:25:24 GMT
Let's ping Allan ( tallanent) for this one, he's plenty knowledgeable on such matters .... Ryan
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stainlessb
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qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Apr 18, 2019 21:32:14 GMT
and here's one that's easy to read! Plate 102 too bad it has been trimmed... and then a nice cancellation with clear plate # 110
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Post by tallanent on Apr 18, 2019 23:09:55 GMT
Post a picture of the full stamp for those that you are having a problem with and I will take a look at them tomorrow when I return from the railway ...
Most can be sorted fairly easily even when only part of the number is visible ...
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khj
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Posts: 1,460
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Post by khj on Apr 19, 2019 0:25:34 GMT
here's a 2400 dpi scan across the middle - left side shows a clear "4" but the area in the scroll work below where the other number should be (?) is blacked out by the cancellation, although the scroll field above seems to have the lower portion of what could be a "6" or "8"... or even a "3" ( but this doesn't make sense either). The right side appears to show a "4" above an "8" (both are faint). Plate #'s for the 1864 Penny Reds started with plate 71- 84 seems likely, but the numbers are reversed on the right side (corner letters are R K if that is of importance) engraving error? or am I missing something? Plate numbers for the 1864 penny reds go from #71 through #225, skipping a few plate numbers that didn't pass inspection. Your stamp is either 143, 146, or 148. I would have said 148, but the last digit is really too worn for me to say for certain. You can see that the "1" is almost completely gone. The plate number reads upward on the left side, and downward on the right side.
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khj
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Posts: 1,460
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Post by khj on Apr 19, 2019 1:51:06 GMT
Here are my plate #143, #146, #148 for comparison:
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stainlessb
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qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Apr 19, 2019 2:02:05 GMT
khj now those are very clear and easy to see! thanks for posting!!
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khj
Member
Posts: 1,460
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Post by khj on Apr 19, 2019 2:06:24 GMT
It's tougher on used stamps, because of cancels obliterating the plate numbers and also wear/scuff/scratches. Having plate numbers on both left side and right side is a great convenience on GB stamps. When collecting plate numbers, clear numbers take priority over centering/condition/cancel. You will notice on my left 2 stamps, the cancel is very weak and the stamp is poorly centered -- but the plate numbers are clear.
To differentiate between the 3, 6, and 8, you pretty much need an example that has a clear "middle part". That way you can look at the closure/curve/straight on the left side to distinguish the three digits. If you happen to have plate wear, cancel, or a scuff mark right at that spot, you're outta luck.
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Post by feebletodix on Apr 19, 2019 7:49:12 GMT
here's a 2400 dpi scan across the middle - left side shows a clear "4" but the area in the scroll work below where the other number should be (?) is blacked out by the cancellation, although the scroll field above seems to have the lower portion of what could be a "6" or "8"... or even a "3" ( but this doesn't make sense either). The right side appears to show a "4" above an "8" (both are faint). Plate #'s for the 1864 Penny Reds started with plate 71- 84 seems likely, but the numbers are reversed on the right side (corner letters are R K if that is of importance) engraving error? or am I missing something? Plate numbers for the 1864 penny reds go from #71 through #225, skipping a few plate numbers that didn't pass inspection. Your stamp is either 143, 146, or 148. I would have said 148, but the last digit is really too worn for me to say for certain. You can see that the "1" is almost completely gone. The plate number reads upward on the left side, and downward on the right side. Just to throw a spanner in the works, when I look at the left border I can see the 4 is clear and the lower part of the next number is also clear a nice broad curve with a definate end to the arc rather than a full loop which make me think it is a 3
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stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Apr 19, 2019 14:25:56 GMT
Post a picture of the full stamp for those that you are having a problem with and I will take a look at them tomorrow when I return from the railway ... Most can be sorted fairly easily even when only part of the number is visible ... the more I stare at it, the more I think 148...
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Post by tallanent on Apr 20, 2019 17:01:35 GMT
Firstly - sorry for the variation in size .... compared on screen against the imprimature sheets Note the top right corner letter in the totally wrong place - this compared to the plate 148 imp Plate 149 imp - the best match .... I think the variation in placement might be due to a slightly pulled impression that distorts the corner square and thus gives a false impression of relative placement For the record I also checked all the plates from 140 - 149 and all the others are no where close .... IMHO - plate 149 ....
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stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Apr 20, 2019 17:42:17 GMT
Thank you- I will update my scan/ID and start looking for a better example! I've just won a lot of 72 pennyreds /lettered corners and I'm watching another lot of 64- maybe I'll find a replacement!
Thanks again
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khj
Member
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Post by khj on Apr 20, 2019 18:51:47 GMT
You know, I don't know why I didn't think of 149!?! I must be getting really really old.
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Post by jkjblue on Apr 23, 2019 3:11:51 GMT
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stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Apr 23, 2019 16:25:08 GMT
jkjblue You know I never even though turning the scans sideways!?!... a vast improvement for my neck and I think my brain sees better left to right than sideways up and down LOL
I'll check out your link I enjoyed reading your link- is there anyway to print out for reference?
thanks
Stan
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Post by jkjblue on Apr 24, 2019 16:12:20 GMT
Stan - Yes.
What I do is copy the entire blog post article and paste it (using the original formatting option) into a WORD document.
Looks nice, and you can save it for reference.
Jim Jackson bigblue1840-1940.blogspot.com
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stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on May 4, 2019 21:20:27 GMT
Question- seems the majority of these stamps i see all suffer from being "trimmed"- Was this something the postal clerks did when selling rather than just pulling apart the perforations? Or were the majority of early collectors this careless?
I have numerous stamps with 4 mrgins, but one side, or a small portion has been "straight-lined"
This is not just from the 72 I mentioned as I now have ~440 lettered penny reds I'm going through. I'm sure when complete I have duplicate plates as well as an established "wish list"
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renden
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What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on May 4, 2019 21:23:45 GMT
Stan stainlessb.....show us what you mean - do not understand how this mutilation of "reds" is evident - Good luck and hope to have a few "dups"......later !!!! René btw your czecho dups are 50% checked and put on Vario pages.....to accompany other Euro offerings......
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stainlessb
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qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
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What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on May 4, 2019 22:47:12 GMT
like this Plate 171 Plate 171 this one just has a "bite out of one perf) Plate 179 Plate 185 and @ renden cool! has Africa arrived yet?
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renden
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What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on May 4, 2019 22:58:43 GMT
like this Plate 171 Plate 171 this one just has a "bite out of one perf) Plate 179 Plate 185 and @ renden cool! has Africa arrived yet? Lots of guillotine flaws on these specimens.....they were cut with something stainlessb.....so sorry for these stamps but am sure you do have lots that are OK Nothing has arrived yet but on weekends, Canada Post does not operate........Thanks for asking !! René
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khj
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Post by khj on May 4, 2019 23:18:21 GMT
Plate 171 C-F, probably a stamp user still using scissors to separate stamps (note all 4 sides are scissor cut). Plate 171 D-D, yeah it happens, during tearing, soaking, handling, and sometimes even a hungry bug Plate 179 B-H, probably a stamp user who cuts a pane into strips, then either tears or cuts stamps from the strip Plate 185 S-K, probably a stamp collector who cut the stamp off the envelope really really close
Just my opinion. Can't really prove it since it is no longer on cover. But scissor cutting in the early days by stamp users, even on perforated stamps, is not really that unusual. Perforated GB postage stamps had only been put into general use 10 years before those 4-letter Penny Reds were issue. Habits are hard to change.
During my travels to Asia, I recall seeing seniors still using scissors and glue in the 1970s and into the 1980s, even though the stamps were perforated and gummed! As late as the 1980s in the US, I met someone who would cut US stamp panes into strips, and the either tear or scissor cut singles/pairs as needed. Their explanation -- "It's easier for me this way". I wasn't able to mention to them about coils/dispensers...
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stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
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What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on May 4, 2019 23:36:33 GMT
renden I have just barely touched upon the 'tip of the iceberg' - If nothing else, some will be fillers until I find better specimens (they are not all this way, but many will be put into a group lot and head back to e-Bay as these were not things that only I or one other bid on so I don't anticipate any problems recoving some of my outlay @ khj yeah, my gradmother was guilty of cutting the stamps off - saying it was less paper to soak... which while true I have examples of her used US she saved imperf on one side .... it is sad as some of the stamps have good color and very clear plate numbers or interesting cancels, but that's what makes this interesting i suppose cutting is preferable to peeling off (let's make some thins!?! and add a few other 'flaws' for ggod measure) but then again, I should expect perfection everytime from stamps over a century old!
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stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on May 5, 2019 1:28:13 GMT
another example of a trimmed stamp... this would have been an otherwise sound Plate 72 with a most excellent cancellation.... (sigh> C'est la vie
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khj
Member
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Post by khj on May 5, 2019 1:44:36 GMT
I think you might have gotten a batch of 2nds. I've noticed several that you posted had thins/scuffs/tears in additional to being trimmed. That #72 has a clear pinhole. When I used to purchase the Penny Reds in batches, the damage rate was maybe 10%. Average/Good centering was typical of at least 50% in the batches. ~25% would be sound. If you want only sound or nearly fault-free stamps that are F-VF or better, you pretty much have to go to buying individual stamps. Buying in batches is useful if you want to build up your plate number collection from scratch by yourself.
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stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on May 5, 2019 1:59:11 GMT
Yes your % seem to be pretty close to what I'mseeing. Initially i just need a starting place for plates, and in some cases a clear plate # is preferable to a well centered dtamp that's hard to tell without hi res scasnning what the plate # is.
It's a journey and I've barely gotten started. I understood going in that these have been gone through despite claims of "unchecked", but I paid little per each, so I'm not too concerned at this point. I've now had several sellers who I've purcghased from, just send me some realluy nice stamps and one we're almost "pen-pals" HA!
What you've seen in these last are someof the worse. and some I'm simply culling and not even bothering with filing a scan. I figure 5 - 10% stamps I can use is an excellent return. Once I get a foundation, then I will start looking for individual specific plates- which in other QV's I'm already in that mode
and it's fun, which is the whole point.Sure I'd like some investment potential, but what is my time worth? what's a smile worth? what's a nice day worth?
money can't really buy that!
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darkormex
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Swinging through Switzerland and getting tied up in Thailand
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What I collect: The World...just printing and mounting as I go...call me crazy!
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Post by darkormex on May 5, 2019 6:02:51 GMT
During my travels to Asia, I recall seeing seniors still using scissors and glue in the 1970s and into the 1980s, even though the stamps were perforated and gummed! As late as the 1980s in the US, I met someone who would cut US stamp panes into strips, and the either tear or scissor cut singles/pairs as needed. Their explanation -- "It's easier for me this way". I wasn't able to mention to them about coils/dispensers... When I left Korea in 1997, you could still walk into a post office and see a bottle of liquid adhesive at the workspace that customers could use to prepare their envelopes. There was also a small container with a piece of moistened foam for customers. The idea behind both of these was that you don't actually put your tongue on either the postage stamp adhesive already on the back of the stamp or on the envelope to seal it. I thought this might have changed when my family went back in 2018 but sure enough, in the small postal outlet in the strip mall near our Airbnb there was the same liquid adhesive and moistened foam. My wife, who is Korean (now Korean-American), found it faintly objectionable whenever I licked and stuck a stamp on an envelope...she is over it now that we have self-adhesives but I am pretty sure it is a cultural thing in Korea. Sorry, I know this is a bit off topic for this thread but you are the first person to have mentioned this on a stamp forum and I always found it interesting.
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Post by tallanent on May 5, 2019 7:56:45 GMT
1d pink embossed with 1d red attached - probably paying the late fee (or over the half oz weight limit - which I think is unlikely for this item) Used internally in London from London SW to London WC 1d embossed with date slugs for 4 May 1868 Cover used 10 October 1868
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Post by feebletodix on May 5, 2019 7:57:04 GMT
Darkormex, way back in the eighties when I was a postal clerk in middle England, each position had a foam pad for moistening labels, stamps were the customer's responsibility. Rarely did somone buy and stick at the counter, even fewer asked for the use of the pad.
Nice cover Allan.
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vikingeck
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What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on May 5, 2019 9:40:50 GMT
Yes your % seem to be pretty close to what I'mseeing. Initially i just need a starting place for plates, and in some cases a clear plate # is preferable to a well centered dtamp that's hard to tell without hi res scasnning what the plate # is. It's a journey and I've barely gotten started. I understood going in that these have been gone through despite claims of "unchecked", but I paid little per each, so I'm not too concerned at this point. I've now had several sellers who I've purcghased from, just send me some realluy nice stamps and one we're almost "pen-pals" HA! What you've seen in these last are someof the worse. and some I'm simply culling and not even bothering with filing a scan. I figure 5 - 10% stamps I can use is an excellent return. Once I get a foundation, then I will start looking for individual specific plates- which in other QV's I'm already in that mode and it's fun, which is the whole point.Sure I'd like some investment potential, but what is my time worth? what's a smile worth? what's a nice day worth? money can't really buy that! Hi Stainless, as a collector for 60+ years I have to confess that the word "unchecked" rings little alarm bells when I see it. It usually means "here is stuff I can't be bothered with so I'm not checking it" It is 150 years since the penny red was issued in its 100s of millions. Thousands of GB collectors have studied them , sifted the best and passed on the rest. I'm afraid accumulations of these "untouched since 1880s" probably no longer exist and what you have has already been sifted checked and discarded through the years by a large number of different collectors. If you can get 5-10% acceptable you will have done well. I know this is going to sound drastic but as these are really quite commonly available in good condition, keep the numbers you don't have until a better turns up and you will do the stamp world a benefit by dumping and destroying the mutilated duplicates! Gibbons catalogues most numbers at £2.50-£5 with obvious exceptions but dealers will have stockbooks of these at fairs from 50p upwards with full perfs Drastic and sometimes hard to do I know, but destroying 3sided stamps removes wrecks and thereby increases the value of clean stamps with full perfs! The heavy Black number "killer" cancels of Victorian days were intended to prevent cleaning and re-use but it is possible to find lighter used which allow the numbers to be read
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