abctoo
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Post by abctoo on Apr 26, 2019 12:54:32 GMT
Below are scans of a 1922 international cover from Turkey to the United States. The stamp on the front is "Turkey in Asia" (the Turkish Nationalist Government), while the stamps on the back are Ottoman "Turkey," with all cancelled in Sivas on March 20, 1922. As I understand it, the Nationalist Government was not recognized by the U.P.U., and that international mail generally departed Turkey from Istanbul, the seat of the Ottoman Government, thus the Ottoman Government stamps on the back were required for it to leave the shore. Note the "STAMBOUL / 4 AVR. 1922 / DEPART" cancels also on the back. I am trying to identify the black oval marking on the front (the second scan), but I do not read Turkish Arabic. Can anyone help? The sender, the American Committee for Relief in the Near East ("ACRNE"), by itself has an amazing history there beginning in 1915. [ See: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_East_Foundation> ] This cover is from the ACRNE's Sivas Unit. Sivas was a center of grain production in Central Turkey.    Ma |
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Post by mdroth on Apr 26, 2019 17:39:20 GMT
Hi Abctoo - welcome to the forum.
Nice cover. A shame so ragged - seems it has survived lots!
Postmarks are not my thing - and neither is arabic. Others will hopefully chime in as well. All I can tell you about that marking is what is in the middle/interior oval - it looks like the exact same text as the overprint on the main stamp: "Ottoman Post 1337" - which really means 'Ottoman Post 1921'. The date (1921, in arabic numerals) is certain; can't same the same about the text...
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abctoo
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Post by abctoo on Apr 27, 2019 1:06:15 GMT
You are right. The date is the same. The Arabic character on the left looks like, and probably is the same character as the overprint. The problem is that Arabic is written right to left, and from what I understand, it does not appear to be the same word(s). Yes, the cover is quite ragged (or even worse), but it survived and establishes the relationship between the stamps of "Turkey in Asia" and the stamps of "Turkey." I obtained it in the 1970's and put it away for further research. I did not relocate it again until this year. Over the past month, I have been checking on-line to find another cover with such "mixed franking" that traveled outside of the area of Ottoman Empire but have yet been able to locate one. I have seen parcel labels with "Turkey in Asia" stamps and Ottoman stamps, including Hejaz stamps and similar "internal" combinations, but nothing going outside the Empire. If anyone has such a cover, kindly post for all to see. |
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Post by mdroth on Apr 27, 2019 8:31:56 GMT
Don't collect covers...closest thing I have:  |
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Bombadil
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Post by Bombadil on Apr 28, 2019 8:45:14 GMT
I am trying to identify the black oval marking on the front (the second scan), but I do not read Turkish Arabic. Can anyone help?
Although Arabic alphabet was used during the Ottoman empire, the script was written to fit the Turkish language. Making it almost impossible for me to read or understand old Turkish, except for some few arabic words we used to share . In fact i think that even the current Turkish generation will not be able to read old Ottoman .
Nevertheless i did spend last night and today's morning trying to decipher the postmark through multiple Ottoman/Arabic dictionaries and other resources . I was able to connect "some" dots and i think i have an answer for you .
Translation coming up shortly .
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Bombadil
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Post by Bombadil on Apr 28, 2019 14:23:34 GMT
Reading through Arabic calligraphy letters is nothing but tricky and confusing. Nowadays this type of writing (joined letters) is only used by Arabian calligraphers for decorative purposes mostly (Signs, invitations cards, paintings...) . Here is how i tried to decipher it
1- Separating the words in each sentence. 2- I “tried” to convert each word from Ottoman Arabic to the modern Turkish (Latin alphabet). 3- Then I started translating each word from Turkish to English or Arabic .
- In the first Sentence, first row (Right to Left), I failed to convert the first word (A) but I was successful with the next Two (B,C) which answered a big part of the riddle. I am certain that these two are correct.
A: Ottoman= صاسون B: Ottoman= سانسور Converted to Turkish= SANSÜR - Translated to English CENSOR C: Ottoman= دائرةس Converted to Turkish= DAIRESI/DAİRE – Translated to both English or Arabic = DEPARTMENT
- In the second sentence(middle/interior oval), I failed to convert or even read the first word “D” (very confusing) but I was able to translate the third one (I think). Other than the Year, i see no similarities between the well known overprint “Osmanli Postalari” (عثماني بوسته لري) mentioned by Mdroth, and the Overprint in the middle/interior oval.
D: E: Ottoman= ١٣٣٧(1337) Year in Rumi Calendar = 1921 in Gregorian calendar. F: Ottoman= شعبة س , in Arabic شعبة means a DIVISION/SECTION .
- In the third sentence, I think I got the first word(G) right but I couldn’t determine the second one.
G: Ottoman= معاينه Converted to Turkish= MUAYENE/MUAYEŞE – Translated to both English & Arabic = Examination/Checkup/Inspection . H:
Finally i can simply conclude that this a Censorship department postmark of some sort .
I hope that my analysis is correct to a certain point (might be all gibberish  ) |
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tomiseksj
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What I collect: Worldwide stamps/covers, Cinderellas, Ohio Prepaid Sales Tax Receipts, U.S. WWII Ration ephemera
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Post by tomiseksj on Apr 28, 2019 16:50:18 GMT
Jad, I believe that you went above and beyond on this one -- thanks for your effort!
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Bombadil
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Post by Bombadil on Apr 28, 2019 17:31:14 GMT
Jad, I believe that you went above and beyond on this one -- thanks for your effort!
I am happy to do it Steve  , Thank you for the PM nudge !! |
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abctoo
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Post by abctoo on Apr 28, 2019 18:46:44 GMT
To Bombadil: We are on the right track now. Initially, I tried translate.google, but the formal script on the cover converted to modern type. The only similarly appearing word I could get from translate.google was أنقرة Ankara, which I think is "D" in your translation. Nothing else appeared similar. After trying translate.google, I went to the "Ottoman Turkish Alphabet" section on Wikipedia, which provided a rudimentary alphabet. translate.google would again combine individual letters from that alphabet into words that would not appear as the original. At the bottom of the Wikipedia page was reference 11, a link to “Ottoman-Turkish / Conversation-Grammar” by V.H. Hagopian, 1907 Julius Groos, Heidelberg, at <https://archive.org/stream/ottomanturkishco00hago#page/n3/mode/2up/search/numerals> (download for free). The beginning of this 554 page book is a detailed course in speaking and writing Turkish Arabic well beyond me, but its extensive appendices are quite useful for the Turkish and English translations of all sorts of government and daily life activities pre-war Ottoman. For example, at the top of page 461 (shown in the scan immediately below) is the official name of the old Ottoman postal service. The last Turkish Arabic word (labeled "1" in the scan) for Postalari confirms the last word (on the left) of the overprint on the 5 piastre stamp. I am still working on that stamp's first word which Scotts catalogue translates to "Osmanli," but it appears to be with slightly different lettering than in Hagopian. That raises questions of how the word "Ottoman" was distinguished between the Ankara and Instanbul governments. As for your item "F", note item "2" in the scan below, which appears to mean "administration." Before your reply, I spent much time trying to get translate.google to come up with the meaning of this word, including variants like ministry, office, department, etc., but I think you have got it with "Division" or "Section."  As to your item "A," Hagopian's appendix on page 463 includes some military definitions. As shown in the scan below, the item labeled "3" from that page suggests that "A" may mean "Corps" or "Army Corps," which is consistent with the marking being a censor marking. What do you think?  My next question about this cover are about the rates. The Nationalist stamp is 5 piastre. The Istanbul Government stamps total 100 paras, with 40 paras to the piastre, or 2 1/2 piastres. That is half the rate of the Nationalist stamp. Since all stamps were cancelled in Sivas, was the international rate 2.5 piastres with the 5 piastre stamp including the cost of liberated Istanbul stamps or stamps purchased separately. Did the sender pay 2 1/2 piastre to each government, or did the sender paid the full 7 1/2 piastres affixed? |
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Bombadil
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Post by Bombadil on Apr 28, 2019 21:07:44 GMT
To Bombadil: We are on the right track now. Initially, I tried translate.google, but the formal script on the cover converted to modern type. The only similarly appearing word I could get from translate.google was أنقرة Ankara, which I think is "D" in your translation. As to your item "A," Hagopian's appendix on page 463 includes some military definitions. As shown in the scan below, the item labeled "3" from that page suggests that "A" may mean "Corps" or "Army Corps," which is consistent with the marking being a censor marking. What do you think?  I see how Arabic letters are confusing you especially when it comes to the diacritics and the way letters merge together (i even get confused alottt  ) . The first two letters of "D" are the same two letters of أنقرة but the rest of the letters are different - ق & ك are pronounced almost the same way in Arabic, so i see why Google Translate gave you that answer but it could not be Ankara . Here is how i read it انكايزج or انكليزج , the weird part is that "انكليز" in Arabic & "Ingiliz" in Turkish means "English" . So could D+F = English Division ?? I wanted to add this in the previous post but it just felt illogical to me , as am not sure at all if i am reading or writing this word(D) correctly .
Sorry to tell you that A and 3 are two totally different words: # 3 in Ottoman= همايون , "A" in Ottoman= صاسون Converted to Turkish letters = Sason/Sasun .
But am glad to say that i might have figured what A means , i was so focused on giving a meaning to the Turkish word that i didn't pass it through a simple google search , which would have revealed the following : Sason formerly known as Sasun or Sassoun is a district in the Batman Province of Turkey!!!
Which would make the first sentence : Sason Censorship Department
As for the Rates questions, i think mdroth is the right person to answer that . |
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abctoo
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Post by abctoo on Apr 28, 2019 22:13:09 GMT
To Bombadil: Your "E" & "F" identifications of an "English Division" make sense. This letter is from the Sivas Unit of the American Committee for Relief in the Near East (ACRNE). [In 1919, ACRNE became the second humanitarian organization to receive a Congressional Charter (the first being the American Red Cross). It was formed under a slightly different name in 1915 in response to the reports of Ambassador Henry Morganthau Sr. about governmental atrocities against Ottoman Armenians.] ACRNE sent many Americans to Armenia to provide famine relief. I wish I had the letter. Until I can obtain more information about its recipient, it is not unreasonable to presume it was written in English and sent "home" to a family member. Thus, someone in an "English" unit of the censor would have had to read it to clear passage. As for item "A," Sasun, that is southeast of Sivas, while Istanbul is northwest. Granted the terrain has obstacles between, with mail transportation often by the easiest way. Had you said any place other than the oppose direction, I would have assumed the censor was from the Nationalist government. But then again, a censor operating during a war may perform its functions anywhere. Sasun was the location of the 1894 and 1902 Armenian revolts against the Ottomans and Kurds. After the revolts were put down, the Ottoman Empire stationed troops there. So now comes the question of whether the censor was from the Nationalists, the Istanbul government, or one of the foreign occupying concessionaires? Hey, this is just a ratty old cover, but oh what fun! We can let mdroth and his associates deal with the rate issue.
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abctoo
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Post by abctoo on Apr 29, 2019 19:42:04 GMT
Bombadil correctly changed the translation of the year ١٣٣٧ (1337) in the thread from its Hijri calendar equivalent of 1918 Gregorian to that of the Rumi calendar equivalent of 1921 Gregorian. 1921 is consistent with the date indicated in Scotts catalogue. In January, 1921, the Ankara Parliament ratified the first Turkish constitution. On Oct. 29, 1923, the Grand National Assembly declared Turkey a republic. The cancellation on mdroth's piece with Turkey in Asia and Ottoman stamps affixed posted in this thread is cancelled ٢٨ - ٢ - ٤١ or [13]41-2-28. The year 1341 under the 1918 reform of the Rumi Calendar would date it February 28, 1925 or pre-reform as February 28, 1924 (while A.H. ١٣٣٧ would run from Aug. 24, 1922 through Aug. 14, 1923 Gregorian). That is not inconsistent with the republic already being in existence nor with Scotts saying the republic's first stamps were issued over a period of time between 1923-25. It takes time for the various denominations to be distributed, and of course there was an extreme shortage of paper in the war torn country. Below is a scan of the calendar section from Hagopian's 1907 book referenced elsewhere in this thread to explain the Ottoman calendar from the sultan's degree in A.H. 1205 (1789) to 1909. The 1918 reform of the Rumi Calendar moved the time to change the start date of the solar year from March back to January adjusting the "new" Islamic year date to cover the first two months of the solar year. One slight confusion exists as Islamic months are shorter than Roman months, so it is unclear what day in March the Islamic year used to change.  |
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abctoo
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Post by abctoo on Jun 14, 2019 11:15:32 GMT
For the record, here is a full description of the cover and related information that started this thread.
1922 Turkish censored cover to U.S.A. mixed franked with Ottoman and Ankara Government stamps totaling 7 1/2 gurush, the foreign ordinary letter rate in effect from 10 June 1921. For rates, see the Academy of Turkish Philately's exhibit, “Turkish Grand National Assembly Government Postal History 1920-1923,” <http://www.turkfilateliakademisi.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/PHoAG_OneFrame_sec.pdf> . That exhibit notes: "Very few items are known as sent from Anatolia to foreign countries during the Ankara Government period." While picturing a cover for each domestic rate used, the exhibit was able to include only four of the eight possible foreign rates. Scotts catalogs the Ottoman stamps as "Turkey" #347 and the Ankara Government stamp as "Turkey in Asia - Anatolia" #52.
All stamps were canceled in Sivas on March 20, 1922 with a black bilingual cancel reading " ٣ / سيوس / m20-3-922 * ۳۳۸-۳-۲۰ / 3 / SIVAS ." On the front of the envelope is an Ottoman 5 gurush fiscal stamp overprinted by the Ankara Government with "Osmanli Postalari 1921" to validate it for postage. On the back are five 20 para Ottoman stamps, totaling 100 para. As 40 para are equal to one gurush, the 100 para in Ottoman stamps on the back are another 2 1/2 gurush postage on the cover. Total postage is 7 1/2 gurush, the then current foreign ordinary letter rate. Additional transit marks on the back include a faint March 25, 1922 bilingual cancel from Samsun reading " صامسون /m25-3-922 * ۳۳۸- [] / SAMSOUN " and an April 4, 1922 cancel from Istanbul reading " STAMBOUL / 4- AVR 1922 / DEPART. "
The front contains a black oval censor marking written in Ottoman Turkish. Its meaning in English, Ottoman Turkish (Ottoman Turkish is read right to left) and Modern Turkish is:
Samsun Censor Division (Department) سانسور دائرةس صامسون SAMSUN SANSÜR DAIRESI/DAİRE
English Section شعبة س إنكليزي BÖLÜNME [İNGILIZCE] 1921 ١٣٣٧ 1338 [In the Rumi Calendar = 1921]
Examined by Censor معاينه ـنـچــث ر MUAYENE/MUAYEŞE SANSÜR.
The cover originates from the Sivas Unit of the American Committee for Relief in the Near East. Founded in 1915 in response to Ambassador Henry Morgenthau Sr.'s reports of governmental atrocities against Ottoman Armenians, the Committee is the United States' oldest nonsectarian international development organization and the second American humanitarian organization to be chartered by an Act of Congress. The American Red Cross was the first. See, <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_East_Foundation> . Sivas was a center of grain production in Central Turkey.
While some of the efforts of Stamp Forum member bombadil to translate the censor markings are shown above in other postings in this thread, not shown are his extensive efforts to decipher the censor markings, including some shown in numerous personal messages we exchanged. Bombadil said that people in Turkey cannot read the Ottoman Turkish script. In 1928, as one of Atatürk's Reforms in the early years of the Republic of Turkey, the Ottoman Turkish alphabet was replaced with a Latin alphabet. Modern online translators, like Google or Microsoft, are not equipped to translate Ottoman Turkish and only may recognize the bulk of its characters as Arabic or Persian. And with those languages, when more than one character is entered into an on-line translator, it is automatically combined with the preceding character(s) according to the rules of the language thought to be being read and not according to Ottoman Turkish grammar.
Bombadil, who stated he had little experience with censor markings, also indicated that even if you obtain a translation that seems accurate, it still has to fit into the context from which it came. For example, for the second line of censor marking text, he came up with "English Section" but did not think that correct. The cover is to the United States from someone with the American Committee for Relief in the Near East. Thousands of Americans had gone to Anatolia to assist. With the cover being sent to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, U.S.A., we reasonably concluded it was written in English. Bombadil was working on the censor marking and I had not yet noticed the faint Samsun cancel on the back of the cover. He accurately translated the characters forming the first word of the censor marking (reading it right to left) as the city name of Sasun, not the intended city name of Samsun. Later, I located the Academy of Turkish Philately's exhibit referenced above, which at page 14 shows a 1921 foreign postcard with English writing to Massachusetts (U.S.A.) with a purple impression of the same censor mark, the Istanbul transit mark with a different date, and the notation, "violet oval censor mark of Samsun." Nearly all of the domestic and foreign rate covers of that exhibit have censor markings, but with the exception of the 1921 foreign post card, none have censor markings remotely similar in design, shape, or style of the "English Section" censor mark.
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, Thank you for the PM nudge !! 
) .