blaamand
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Currently creating custom pages until 1940.
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What I collect: Worldwide - Stamps and Postmarks - not enough time...
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Post by blaamand on Oct 13, 2019 21:56:15 GMT
Moderator Note: This thread was originally named Canada Small Queens of 1st Ottawa printing - which are they?, but now has been renamed to a more general title to encourage posts about anything having to do with the Small Queens issues, including but not limited to the identifications of the correct printings.
Please help - I've entered into another abyss namely the 'First Ottawa' printings of the 'Small Queens'. I am trying to make sense of the mystery of all the different printings, starting with 'First Ottawa'. It is a mystery because there are so many online resources, however it seems difficult to find an overview of exactly which varieties are from this particular printing. Unitrade is doing the best of it by providing an Identification table, however it seems to me to be incomplete - or even eurorors (e.g. 35a is Montreal, not Ottawa). The First Ottawa printing is shown in left column below - and only 5 stamps/varieties are included. Now - my problem is - First Ottawa had more than the 5 varieties given in this table - so which are they? Going by various online resources I've tried to consolidate the most known varieties of the First Ottawa printing on my DIY page below. However I do not feel confident this is correct. Unitrade do not specify which printings all their listed varieties belong to, so some of the varieties on my page is there because I believe them to be 1st Ottawa, but I do not know for sure. I will be very grateful if any of our seasoned Canada collectors can cast a glance at this page and point out any obvious errors or if obvious varieties are missing. Here's a closer look:
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Ryan
Member
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,720
What I collect: If I have a catalogue for it, I collect it. And I have many catalogues ....
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Post by Ryan on Oct 14, 2019 0:14:35 GMT
I can help to confuse you even more! ha ha Here's a table taken from a book dealing strictly with the 3 cent Small Queen. I've posted this somewhere on TSF before, a search for Small Queens on this forum will perhaps turn up more information for you. The original scans are getting pretty old now, I think I originally posted this on SCF back in 2010. I've just now noticed the odd trimming at the bottom of the 1st scan and the top of the 2nd scan - I would guess this is an artifact from the image size reduction scheme used by SCF back in those days to get scan sizes under 100 kB. Ryan
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Ryan
Member
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,720
What I collect: If I have a catalogue for it, I collect it. And I have many catalogues ....
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Post by Ryan on Oct 14, 2019 0:18:44 GMT
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renden
Member
Posts: 8,705
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Oct 14, 2019 0:19:15 GMT
Ryan quite interesting my older friend WERT will surely respond to this and I have copied the link to check in my big Reference book on SQs and other references I will post tomorrow as it is getting late.... René
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blaamand
Member
Currently creating custom pages until 1940.
Posts: 1,459
What I collect: Worldwide - Stamps and Postmarks - not enough time...
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Post by blaamand on Oct 14, 2019 11:17:21 GMT
Ryan - thanks for that!! I actually managed just the same late last night, after I had made this post above I did some digging in my own old files, and found the entire Shoemakers list in 'The Official journal of BNAPS", vol 56 - no.3, issued 1999. I saved it when I worked on the small queens a couple of years back, but had forgot I had it! Thanks a lot anyway, and yes - you are right Ryan - Shoemakers lists got me rather confused - he is into details I have not read anywhere else. The quality of the images in my copy is a bit better than the one from SCF, so I will share them in this thread for anyone curious. Shoemakers most detailed studies is actually captured in 2 different tables, here is table 1: And here is table 2 So, I did look at these very late last night until I exhausted! Was blown away by all the details - 12 different varieties of the 3c from the 1st Ottawa printing alone - and countless for the later printings! I cannot possibly go this deep into the small queens... I ended up simply adding one more variety for the 1st Ottawa printing, Pale rose...and allowing space for vertical mesh as well. When things get too complicated one need to try to simplify! For anyone interested, I can share the full Newsletter with an article of the 3c small queen, where these tables are taken from, just sing out.
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blaamand
Member
Currently creating custom pages until 1940.
Posts: 1,459
What I collect: Worldwide - Stamps and Postmarks - not enough time...
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Post by blaamand on Oct 14, 2019 11:37:21 GMT
Indeed! I've already spend hours - no thats wrong - I've spent days reading all of them, over and over again!! Some very knowledgable folks around that are very helpful to explain and assist others, Ryan included. Big thanks to all that is helpful with fellow stampers!! What confuses me though is that Unitrade does not seem to capture the full picture of the small queens very well - and lots of what one is reading from various online sources does not always match up. So I tried to consolidate what I found to be the essence in identifying the First Ottawa in the write-up on my album page...but it is still a simplification at best!! If anyone has additional useful information for how to identify First Ottawa, that will be much appreciated. What an abyss!! (btw - If anyone minds to read my write up you'll detect I have left out mentioning postmarks as part of the identification - I am sucker for postmarks anyway, so I did not include the obvious...)
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renden
Member
Posts: 8,705
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Oct 14, 2019 16:16:07 GMT
Having gathered references on the Canada Small Queen for the past 2 years and having used them, I plan to re-do these stamps again and maybe a third time. Here are some references used: 1) Canada's Small Queen Era 1870-1897 - George B. Arfken (good read but not an identification book) 2) Canada's Postage Stamps of the Small Queen Era,1870-1897 - Hillson and Nixon (full of great stuff, shades, perfs, no catalog numbers) 3) Small Queens Issue - A guide to Identification of Printings - John Hillson (good reference) www.canadianpsgb.org.uk/small_queens_print.html4) Color Guides of the Small Queens - Richard Morris - a) Three Cents small Queens # 37 & 41 b)Two cents #36; five cents # 38 &42; eight cents #44 c)one cent #35; six cents #39 & 43 ; ten cents # 40 & 45 5) Perf gauge received by a member of another Forum with Kiusalas gauge, Possible Small Queen gauges, decimal and standard gauges. This gauge was received directly from the author and I cannot post it 6) More recently I added from our Forum: Shoemakers list in 'The Official journal of BNAPS", vol 56 - no.3, issued 1999 note: The 2 books were bought from Vincent Greene Graves Phil Research Foundation The Color Guides were bought from the RPSC www.rpsc.org/reference/lit/lit_colour.htmRené
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blaamand
Member
Currently creating custom pages until 1940.
Posts: 1,459
What I collect: Worldwide - Stamps and Postmarks - not enough time...
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Post by blaamand on Oct 15, 2019 6:28:50 GMT
renden - you are well equipped for the Small Queens!!
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brightonpete
Departed
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On a hike at Goodrich-Loomis
Posts: 5,110
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Post by brightonpete on Mar 3, 2020 2:33:14 GMT
I just picked up the 20 & 50¢ Widow Weeds pair today. So now I have to decide how to make up my album pages. I think I'm just going to keep it basic - one example of each major Unitrade entry. Trying to figure out all the varieties would be difficult enough, but my budget is somewhat limited. So 14 stamps will be on the main page. If I should ever get any of the colour, perf or paper varieties, (I doubt it) they'll go on another page.
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Post by jimjung on Mar 28, 2020 15:26:52 GMT
I have these 3c Small Queen Flaws/Reentries from the 1st Ottawa Printing. I managed to throw my own little curve into collecting the Small Queens.
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renden
Member
Posts: 8,705
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Mar 28, 2020 16:10:56 GMT
I have these 3c Small Queen Flaws/Reentries from the 1st Ottawa Printing. I managed to throw my own little curve into collecting the Small Queens. Very nice and thanks for sharing - the SQs drive me crazy so I go for very short periods of time LOL
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nikhil
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Working on Australia, GDR, Japan
Posts: 552
What I collect: I collect WW. Looking for early issues.
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Post by nikhil on Mar 29, 2020 4:59:01 GMT
Nice stamps jimjung ! Are the drawings hand done by you? Those are lovely! I just have 1 small queen which could be the 37d ...
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Post by jimjung on Mar 29, 2020 12:51:55 GMT
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Post by jimjung on Mar 29, 2020 13:02:09 GMT
Nice stamps jimjung ! Are the drawings hand done by you? Those are lovely! I just have 1 small queen which could be the 37d ... I got the template of the 3c for the drawing and put 9 of them on a page and photocopied a bunch. I put in the highlighted areas which represent where the reentry is on each stamp. I have multiple copies of each reentry as the Small Queen reentries are just slightly different sometimes on each stamp.
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Post by jimjung on Mar 29, 2020 13:15:16 GMT
Here is a closeup of one of the 1st Ottawa Printing reentries. You can see it most clearly in the D of CANADA but many of the letters in CANADA have some doubling. That is the nice early shade of the 3c Small Queen.
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renden
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Posts: 8,705
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Nov 24, 2020 17:57:46 GMT
My search for a 37dI have already posted my references a while ago in this thread I fell on this SQ because it was given to me 10 days ago as part of a massive gift from a local friend (discussed elsewhere). Am sure blaamand, Ryan, or jimjung can help me out ! The stamp: 3¢ Small Queen (SQ) copper red smooth surface and opaque paper perf 12.5 all around or Kiusalas 63 early 1st Ottawa printing 1870 (12.5 perf) no LL dot (10%) a possible 37d ? scan underdefines the real color
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nikhil
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Working on Australia, GDR, Japan
Posts: 552
What I collect: I collect WW. Looking for early issues.
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Post by nikhil on Nov 25, 2020 14:02:40 GMT
Nice one renden! I had posted mine in another thread earlier but here it is again - Not sure but I think the 37d can be determined using the place where it was postmarked from and the date ? Your copy has no date so not sure how can the cancel can be dated ?
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renden
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Posts: 8,705
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Nov 25, 2020 17:43:41 GMT
I might send my copy to Vincent Graves, after receiving more input !!
Thanks Nik for sharing - René
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Ryan
Member
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,720
What I collect: If I have a catalogue for it, I collect it. And I have many catalogues ....
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Post by Ryan on Nov 26, 2020 1:04:53 GMT
I have never done any sort of perforation study on Small Queens and I don't know anything about how accurate the original perforation machine was. The numbers on the Kiusalas gauge (63, 64, 66, etc) represent the spacing between perf holes in thousandths of an inch, and a difference of .001" in the spacing is going to be extremely difficult to ascertain. Even over a span of 14 holes (the vertical edge of the stamp) that's only .014" or less than 1/64". Tiny, tiny. There will also be accuracy questions regarding any scanner - they aren't $100,000 machines, they're $100 machines. In any case, I did a quick digital fiddle on your image, taking the perforations from the right side of the stamp and comparing them to the left side and the top side. There's a small inaccuracy from right to left and a fairly big inaccuracy from right to top. If the scanner is relatively accurate (a big "if") then it doesn't look to me like your stamp has the same perforation on the top as it does on the side. Of course, experts will know more than I do, so trust their opinion more than mine! Ryan
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renden
Member
Posts: 8,705
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Nov 26, 2020 13:30:51 GMT
Thanks Ryan.....will rere-test he perfs on the stamp itself and give you some results !! René
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renden
Member
Posts: 8,705
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Nov 26, 2020 18:01:41 GMT
Thanks Ryan .....will rere-test he perfs on the stamp itself and give you some results !! René Perf measurement re-done with 2 gauges and I have to admit that my 3¢ copper red does measure more likely 12X12 and thus would be a 37b That is why we have this Forum of ideas and comments !! - Thanks René
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watermark
Member
Posts: 62
What I collect: My main collecting area is focused on Canadian stamps printed from steel engraved plates. Specifically re-entries and constant plate varieties.
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Post by watermark on Nov 26, 2020 19:27:35 GMT
I have a certified copy of 37d Multiple cancelations but can make out the date as MA 3 1870 and NS. #37d Is listed in 2020 Unitrade Catalogue with earliest recorded use: Jan 17, 1870, and Jan 13, 1870. Found in an APS circuit book for the astronomical price of 15 cents several years ago. Mike
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renden
Member
Posts: 8,705
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Nov 26, 2020 22:37:34 GMT
watermark happy for you...... when are you going to sell it ? René
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watermark
Member
Posts: 62
What I collect: My main collecting area is focused on Canadian stamps printed from steel engraved plates. Specifically re-entries and constant plate varieties.
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Post by watermark on Nov 26, 2020 23:07:06 GMT
When I find another one...
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Post by jimjung on Dec 4, 2020 19:56:01 GMT
My search for a 37dI have already posted my references a while ago in this thread I fell on this SQ because it was given to me 10 days ago as part of a massive gift from a local friend (discussed elsewhere). Am sure blaamand , Ryan , or jimjung can help me out ! The stamp: 3¢ Small Queen (SQ) copper red smooth surface and opaque paper perf 12.5 all around or Kiusalas 63 early 1st Ottawa printing 1870 (12.5 perf) no LL dot (10%) a possible 37d ? scan underdefines the real color renden - it's difficult to say but the colour doesn't have the rusty orange brown shade on your scan. nikhil's stamp looks to be a Toronto postmark with the 1 in oval grid so that would discount it. Be careful measuring the perfs because 12 1/4 is also a valid perf measurement on this stamp.
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Post by jimjung on Dec 4, 2020 19:58:08 GMT
I have a certified copy of 37d Multiple cancelations but can make out the date as MA 3 1870 and NS. #37d Is listed in 2020 Unitrade Catalogue with earliest recorded use: Jan 17, 1870, and Jan 13, 1870. Found in an APS circuit book for the astronomical price of 15 cents several years ago. Mike I can't see the town name but I believe the letters in the center of the stamp are N.S. for Nova Scotia.
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renden
Member
Posts: 8,705
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Dec 4, 2020 20:07:33 GMT
Thanks jimjung for your comments on my 37b (not d) but scan does not reproduce the rusty color I have on my stamps and after many measurements (I will repeat) 12X12 René Will re-scan just for the heck of it at 600 dpi (my 1st one was 600 also)
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djcmh
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What I collect: Worldwide
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Post by djcmh on Dec 14, 2020 6:16:07 GMT
Can someone explain to me the difference between Unitrade 35a Orange Perf 12 Montreal Printing and Unitrade 35ii Orange Perf 12 Ottawa Printing. I am assuming the difference is in the paper but Unitrade does not shed much light on how to tell the difference between the two. The perf 11.5x12 Orange is Unitrade 35d so it must not be perf difference.
Similarly, the difference between 35iv Red Orange Ottawa Printing 1870 and the 35v Deep Red Orange Montreal Print 1873. Is it only question of shade?
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watermark
Member
Posts: 62
What I collect: My main collecting area is focused on Canadian stamps printed from steel engraved plates. Specifically re-entries and constant plate varieties.
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Post by watermark on Dec 18, 2020 14:17:35 GMT
The chart at the beginning of this thread has the most helpful information on determining which periods the stamps were printed.
Mike
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Post by jimjung on Jun 25, 2021 15:26:05 GMT
I'm not really an expert on the Small Queen's but I can give you a partial answer to this. The early 1st Ottawa printings are very clear when you look at the design and they are also printed on a white paper. Here is an example. For the shade differences, you really have to have a deep orange colour. Look at the Queen's hair and you can see clearly each strand line. Here is an example.
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