stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
Member is Online
|
Post by stainlessb on Nov 28, 2021 23:49:36 GMT
Another, date confirmed Juin 25, 1877, but no notch in lower right and another just for curiosity- maybe a sub-type A... borderline, but the obliteration has my interest(?) and with that, even though about 100 more stamps to go through, my eyes are done for the day- tomorrow the search continues!
|
|
renden
Member
Posts: 8,711
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
|
Post by renden on Nov 29, 2021 13:15:46 GMT
No images in previous post, stainlessb - they never loaded !! René
|
|
stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
Member is Online
|
Post by stainlessb on Nov 29, 2021 17:24:33 GMT
... that is odd, I can see every one of them?!?
|
|
renden
Member
Posts: 8,711
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
|
Post by renden on Nov 29, 2021 17:41:13 GMT
stainlessb - Stan, I now can see all your scans - do not understand what happened - The "notch" for me is not evident - not mentioned in Maury 2022 cat Thanks ! René
|
|
stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
Member is Online
|
Post by stainlessb on Nov 29, 2021 17:51:01 GMT
the notch is not very large (in either the illustration from Marianne nor my stamp), and I am wondering if this is (perhaps) something that is only found on the Sub-type A issues... but it doesn't seem to be a major trait and Marianne is the only reference that shows it
I am not too concerned (at the moment, unless someone brings up more definitive documentation) about it's presence , or lack from those stamps that based on the shadowing in POSTE appear to be sub-type A (and the date stamps prior to the issuance of sub-type B would seem to trump all else!
Still searching today. Hope to finish and start sorting out color shades of the sub-type B
|
|
stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
Member is Online
|
Post by stainlessb on Nov 30, 2021 0:02:58 GMT
close to 600 stamps later i have a total of 8 stamps with characteristics of the Sub-type A- 3 with dates prior to the issuance of the sub-type B, 2 with dates not long after the issuance of the B sub-type and 3 more that look promising but no date... I will likely go with the dated stamps as i can get the shades that are listed (at least based on my by interpretation of what the color description means. I may take a few days before I wade intot he 11 shades of the sub-type B, but I think I have a large enough study group I should come very close if not able to find examples of all and yes, it is very subjective! here's a couple more stamps- left stamp is questionable, middle stamps looks like a suspect, far right is likely a B but the cancellation??? looks like a OR or 0R inside a circle- anyone have any insight as to what this might be?
|
|
anglobob
Member
Posts: 2,425
What I collect: France and French Colonies,French cinderellas British Commonwealth QE2
|
Post by anglobob on Nov 30, 2021 1:20:18 GMT
stainlessb I was told OR signifies Rural Origin...Origine rurale. I have seen a similar obliteration of OL...Which I assume is Origine Locale Anglobob
|
|
stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
Member is Online
|
Post by stainlessb on Nov 30, 2021 23:41:23 GMT
so sad.... stamp abuse someone tried very hard to make this an imperforate and I don't believe this denomination was issued as stationary... from the back view bottom right you can see a trace of two of the perfs- why I have no idea, there is no listing for non-dentile and the color on this would have made it a very nice stamp.... ...nothing more to see here....
|
|
stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
Member is Online
|
Post by stainlessb on Dec 1, 2021 22:40:08 GMT
one of the more challenging pages to lay out. I did not want to have the 2 centimes on a page by themselves as it would be more than a little 'empty. The only pages I have with more stamps (20) are the GB penny red plates (72 -225). The color shades...at times it seems an exercise in futility and I will go back through the study lot when I complete the Sage pages and have another go at it... for now, my eyes have seen enough. i have relied heavily on date stamps to eliminate later issues/shades... this is by no means fool proof as there is no telling how long some/many of these stamps may have sat in post offices before finally being used... but it's a start (and progress)
|
|
blaamand
Member
Currently creating custom pages until 1940.
Posts: 1,459
What I collect: Worldwide - Stamps and Postmarks - not enough time...
|
Post by blaamand on Dec 2, 2021 16:29:47 GMT
Wow Stan, nice span of shades. This kind of studies takes time and dilligence, but the result is amazing. Smart to back the identification with dated postmarks, without it would be almost impossible.
You mentioned the relative high number of stamps on a single page. In my opinion what you've done is the best solution. If splitting the display of shades between two pages the it would have been much more awkward to compare the nuances in shades and paper. Lovely!!
|
|
renden
Member
Posts: 8,711
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
|
Post by renden on Dec 2, 2021 16:37:36 GMT
I do support blaamand's comments on that wonderful last posted page - This is excellent work - Bravo !! René
|
|
stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
Member is Online
|
Post by stainlessb on Dec 2, 2021 18:05:25 GMT
Thank you both! I'm already second guessing some of the shades and need to just give it a rest for a bit, but it is nice to have the 5centimes Type II's at least partially settled in- the rest of the series presents no where near the challenge!
|
|
stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
Member is Online
|
Post by stainlessb on Jan 3, 2022 18:26:02 GMT
the latest stamps in the Type II series (as I plod along) is the 25 c Outremer (Yvert # 78 A and B) and 25c Blue (Yvert # 79)- As I mentioned elsewhere, the references are a bit frustrating as there seems some contradiction as to what is what? The *consensus" for the 78 A is that there is a 'shadow bridging the upper portion of the "S" in POSTES and the top 2 arms of the E also have shadows following them. The shadowing inside the arms of the "E" is heavier on some . but apparently is not considered.... Below is what I believe "somewhat" representative of the Type A. This stamp was first issued 6/20/1876 and until 10/31/1876- The stamp below cancelled on 10/4/1876 in La Ferte-Fresnel would deem it as a Type A, however several other stamps with legible dates within the range only have one shadow on the "E"... so this seems (to me) to not be an absolute identifier The Type B also has the bridging shadow on the upper portion of the "S" (which makes me wonder why it is even mentioned), but lacks the shadows on the "E", the vertical etched lines being much cleaner. It was issued on 10/31/1876 and until 6/3/1877 only the outremer 25 centimes stamps existed, afterwhich the #79 blue was issued and used. Below is what I perceive as a a Type B with a cancelation March 10, 1877 the images in the catalogues are small and pixilate upon enlarging, Cere's offers a line drawing, which is of some help, and Spink|Maury 20223 looks like the images may be reversed... i will post scans of what i beleiev is each after I go through these individually- the last image below look slike it could be Teype A, but the mifddle arm of the "E" is obscured by the cancelation So after giving all the stamps a bath to remove paper/hinge remnants and some of the dirt/grime- I sorted first based on date, then compared for color as there do seem a few stamps which could maybe go either outremer or blue! dates between 6/20/76 and 10/30/76 in theory, these shouls all be Type A dates between 10/31/76 and 6/2/77- Stamps on left meet Criteria for Type B, on right Type A dates > 8/6/77 top row + next two appear to be outremer, remaining right portion of row 2 and 3 look to be #79 Blue (have not yet examined the outremer stamps to see if they are A or B the "No idea" stamp[s-= no clear date or obliteration obscures the "S" and "E" in POSTE, but those I can see, the mmajority seem to be Type B and the bottom row (right side) appear to be all Blue Below are some individual stamps scanned mainly because of the color variation appears to be #78 and very pale.... below a much lighter 'bue" (??) and lastly a almost blue-violet leaning outremer which has the Type A shadows
|
|
stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
Member is Online
|
Post by stainlessb on Jan 3, 2022 22:01:41 GMT
After scanning each stamp, I have revised those that are dated prior to the release of the Type B (10/31/76), which I hope is accurate as the 3 stamps I have which appear to truly be earlier are all inOctober pf 1876- Not one of them really exhibits the shadowing shown in the references, although the one in the middle is closest here is what looks like to be a IIB Chateaudun April 13, 1877 (prior to # 79 Blue being issued) so it looks like , as with earlier efforts, obliteration date seems the most "sure fired" method to determine Types- Now to make my pages! and move on to the 30 centimes (#80)
|
|
stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
Member is Online
|
Post by stainlessb on Jan 7, 2022 18:27:56 GMT
Sage Type II, Yvert #77 - 82, 15 centimes - 1 Franc When I finish the series I will go back and have a 2nd look at my duplicates compared to what stamps i have mounted to see if my color judgement has changed ( and there are already several under suspicion...)- The 15 centimes page will possibly be revamped to include the details concerning the difference between the Plater Type A & B No to give the #83 1 centimes black on blue a bath, (could there be a #84 lurking?!?... not likely)
|
|
stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
Member is Online
|
Post by stainlessb on Jan 8, 2022 22:48:45 GMT
After a bath, I started presorting the 1 centime Yvert # 83 into what I think are Plate Types A, B & C, but I very quickly got bogged down in looking for the 'defining" traits of each The Type A was first issued May 1877 (Black on Azure), followed by the Black on Blue June 7, 1877, and the Blue on Cobalt in 1885, with other shades interspersed and later. The Type A was withdrawn in 1888, the same year the Type B was released (May 21, 1888) until some time in 1900... the same year the Type C was issued The Type A having the longest print run only issued 317M issues, whereas Type B & C combined is listed at700M. The drawings in Marianne are the easiest to see, compared to the printed images in the other catalogues and look like this: What i have begun to believe is it is not necessarily all 3 traits appear on each type, but are more specific to that type- as en example I have stamps with clear cancellation dates that make them Type A, but do not have the break in the outer frame lower left, OR there is some shading on the "S" and /or "E" in POSTE, and in a few cases almost as much as the illustration for Type B. The shading in the Type A and Type C is the same (other catalogues use a single image and indicate it applies to both). What exactly the arrow point upwards at the "T" is indicative of... I have no idea. I have several Type C with dates and a break in the double frame around the denomination.... but not necessarily appearing on both frames... so again, I will rely more on the dates of cancellation to help 'convince" me that I have Typed the stamp correctly. I cannot find a discussion anywhere as to whether the identified traits are an all or nothing, or simply mainly found on that Type. Below is my first rough pass- stamps upside down are those I am unsure of (in the C group, they have the solid outer frame, no shadows, but lack the break in the denomination frame (and have no date), ultimately ( I think, these will be moved to Type A or placed in the "NO IDEA what they are" category! As you can see, the majority, for now are in the Type B group (and I now see one in the C group that is dated before it could have existed as a C....) This has made this endeavor a bit frustrating... deciphering the color shades based on the translation is already enough entertainment!
let the fun continue!!!
|
|
stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
Member is Online
|
Post by stainlessb on Jan 9, 2022 18:12:10 GMT
Update on the 1 centime #83- While laying out a page today i discovered that Maury, Ceres & Dallay lists a total of 15 color shades (Type A = 7, Type B = 5. and Type C = 3), and with most colors there is a issue year listed, which has been helpful (up to now)
and then I discovered that the Type B, which has an issue date of 5/21/188 (which agrees with those other catalogues which include this information), but for the color shades themselves, 83B is 1896. Ba is 1890, Bb is 1891, Bc is 1893, and Bd is 1898.... following all previous dates, 83B should be the same as the initial release date (5/21/88)... a typo? perhaps
I have relied on Maury, Ceres, & Dallay as it has provided the most detail of any of the references. In looking through the other catalogues, there are fewer color shades; down to 8 in Spinks|Maury 2022-23*, to just 3 in Yvert & Tellier 2021, which while simpler, changes the numbering format..
And at this point i definitely have little interest in redoing all pages up to now to switch formats!
*Spinks|Maury indicates Type A, B & C but provides no detail what-so-ever (?)
It seems it may just be a free for all?!
damn the torpedos!
|
|
stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
Member is Online
|
Post by stainlessb on Jan 15, 2022 0:18:29 GMT
For better of worse i've moved stamps around for several days and here's where I stop for now. After the entire definitive series is done I will go back through the study lots and review what I selected compared to what in each lot and decide if I've changed my mind or stay with what wasn't my first choice necessarily but what I went with as I put up the white flag and surrendered to the next denomination...which in this case is the 2 centimes brun-rouge on chamois (currently in a drying book following a nice warm bath!) at least there is the advantage of cancellations contrasting rather than against a mainly black tone ink...
|
|
stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
Member is Online
|
Post by stainlessb on Jan 19, 2022 23:48:05 GMT
Having moved on from the 1c Type II to the 2 c Type II (Yvert # 85) I am not sure whether I would describe identifying the TYPE A, B or C stamps as a challenge or simply frustrating- As I came to the conclusion with the 1c, not all identified 'traits" seem to necessarily be present on most of the stamps. This seems to hold true with the 2c, to the point that a number of stamps show few traits.... period! I have study group of 102 stamps- there are no print volumes listed for each, simply a date range. Type A approx. 6.5 years, Type B 5+ years with what seems a small overlap with the end of the Type a, and the Type C the longest run of ~ 10.5 years. If a crude assumption is made that production rates were somewhat similar, I'd expect more Type C, followed by Type A with the fewer Type B... (I said it was crude) Below is the identified trats for each type based on the work of Brun, Francon & Storch, Marianne 1999, a work I was told on another forum was the "go to" reference for the early stamps of France (it only covers up to 1900) . They have their on numbering system which makes a bit more work to compare/contrast to other works The 'shadows" on the letters "S" "T" and "E" in POSTE is the same as discussed in Maury, Ceres & Dallay (2009)and Spink|Maury (2018, 2022-2023), but is not recognized Ceres (2003) nor in Yvert & Teller (2021)... The line etching/shading detail around the knee (lower drawings above) of Commerce is only mentioned in Marianne- Most of the stamps I have all exhibit the Type A & C show this, with only a few looking somewhat like Type B, but only on the etching between the knee and the denomination box. I have found nothing looking like the top of the upper leg Unlike other stamps, I have no very early postmarks (that I can read), Type A and B both have an unblemished "E", and although all 3 types show the bridged "S" I have quite a few stamps that have very clear etching/no shadows at all on the POSTE, but most all have the heavy shadow to the right of the denomination box... and I have a vertical pair, the upper stamps has the POSTE traits of the Type A, the lower stamp, none.... I am beginning to suspect that some of the traits may be the result of over-zealous flyspecking in the past. Yvert and Tellier only list a Type II with no sub-type- and for the 2 centimes, only 3 color/shades. Ceres lists two, while Maury, Ceres & Dallay lists the 3 types totaling 11 stamps, Spink|Maury lists the types and a total of 5 stamps. Marianne also has the 3 types with a total of 11 stamps, but not in the same numbers as Maury, Ceres & Dallay. There does seem to be more shades than 3, but i know this is subjective. The question now is to continue following the path I initially chose, or rethink and start over. If I accept that all traits may not be present, fine, but this puts a lot of stamps by default as Type A unless a later postmark pushes it into a Type C (as the lower image above (left) is common to the majority of stamps Thoughts, comments? examples of any of these with all traits?
|
|
pattib
Member
Posts: 80
What I collect: Anything France but especially semi-postal. Worldwide to 1920.
|
Post by pattib on Jan 20, 2022 11:48:12 GMT
stainlessb I feel your pain. About a year ago I asked about my meager selection of 1c varieties. I attempted to distinguish the different varieties and found that nothing seemed to match the pictures in the Yvert catalog. I became very frustrated and locked up all of my stamps until just recently. Whatever you decide, I admire your tenacity in this endeavor!
|
|
stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
Member is Online
|
Post by stainlessb on Jan 20, 2022 14:52:52 GMT
thanks pattib for your comments. I'm not sure if it is tenacity, stubbornness, or what... After posting my comment last night I went through the reference I have and had to remind myself, many of the various approaches have been in place for a very long time- Marianne was first published in 1957. My 2009 copy of Maury, Ceres & Dallay is the 114th edition, Ceres, in 2003 it was the 60th edition, and Yvert & Tellier, the 2021 printing is the 125th anniversary!... it would be interesting to find very early copies and see how much has changed, been revised, or just completely dropped from the discussion? Has there always been a split on whether the different plate types/printings and the traits associated? The color shades/nuances- when first described there was no practical way to reproduce examples, so a description is all we have to go on, and color in many ways is abstract- is it brown-orange or orange- brown....or maybe yellow/black-red/yellow or visa versa.... A printed reference could be helpful.... but it would be at best 'faith' based that the colors were true reproductions of the originals Dates in some cases are helpful, but only on eliminating a later stamp from consideration based on date....but it seems plausible that the eariest issue s could have been unused for years before finally finding there way to an envelope - consider how many of 'us' will use unused/older stamps on mail now because they are as valuable (or more) as postage? and then we have the effects of time on the stamps, inks and papers themselves- so many variables and apparently quite a few scholarly opinions... I may stare at my latest page for a few more days, but I suspect I will follow the path I started on and do my best-guess when needed! one of each would have been much simpler, but too late for that
|
|
stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
Member is Online
|
Post by stainlessb on Jan 20, 2022 23:39:01 GMT
taking this a step further....
If anyone has any of the earlier catalogue issues of Yvert & Tellier, Ceres, Maury, Ceres & Dallay, Marianne, Spink|Maury, or any French catalogue not listed (Michel, etc., ?)and would be willing scan some specific pages related to the Type Sage please PM rather than post what may be of little interest to most
Thanks!!!
|
|
daveg28
Member
Posts: 1,015
What I collect: U.S., Canada, Great Britain & Commonwealth, France (esp. 1950-80), DDR, USSR
|
Post by daveg28 on Jan 21, 2022 23:06:36 GMT
How cow. After reading through this thread, I am overwhelmed. I hope you all don’t think less of me that I don’t think I’ll be attempting this depth of identification of my own stamps. I’ll sort them by design, color, and denomination, and take it from there. I’m already delving deeper into France than I initially had imagined!
|
|
stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
Member is Online
|
Post by stainlessb on Jan 21, 2022 23:23:00 GMT
LOL hence my words in another thread to you! How you decide to collect, and what and to what depth and detail is entirely your choice! But you have been warned!!
|
|
stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
Member is Online
|
Post by stainlessb on Jan 22, 2022 23:01:32 GMT
thanks to those who have contacted me thus far- it is helpful.
So far it seems that there has been little changed in regards to die variations, and color shades remains sporadic and vary with each source- Many of the catalogues do not go beyond Type I and Type II and it appears many are largely reprints of earlier catalogues with improved images and updated values.
I did notice that int he Yvert & Tellier 2021 provides quite a bit of details about Ceres and Napoleon issues, and then jumps over Type Sage and again offers details for Type Blanc (which shows the same details as Maury, Ceres & Dallay and then some additional although nothing groundbreaking nor with a lot of explanation.
I have found a couple of philatelic groups for France I will be contacting- I'm not throwing in the towel yet!
|
|
stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
Member is Online
|
Post by stainlessb on Jan 26, 2022 15:52:48 GMT
Below are images from Smithsonian Library collection- Georges Brunel The French Postage Stamps - Historical and Anecdotal Study of the Postage Stamps 1896. This is regarding the Peace & Commerce, Sage issue and lists the colors of the various denominations (divided by Type I and Type II) For Type I, the 1 --10 centimes are listed as only one shade - Green, as are the Type II 2 and 10 centimes, but the 5 centimes has several shades. I am not sure, but the 1c Type II noir sur indigo listed as an error, may be what we now refer to as Prussian Blue??? I will be comparing to the early listings of Maury, Yvert & Tellier as I am able to. I have made an offer on a 1884 Maury book/catalogue & album
|
|
stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
Member is Online
|
Post by stainlessb on Feb 1, 2022 0:55:34 GMT
the continuing saga...Type II 2nd issue 2 centimes Yvert # 85, Die Types A-C. I admit that this denomination has been difficult. I am more 'convinced " on the color shades than I am on the Die Types. Brun, Francon & Storch, Marianne offers the most 'details'. The compilation of Maury, Ceres & Dallay offers some details, Ceres not much and Yvert & Tellier mostly seem to skip over the Type Sage issues with only the Type I/II that seems accepted by all. I have several early editions of catalogues coming to try and piece together why there is such lack of agreement (or mention) as to the Die variants, let alone recognition of shades/nuances. All of the stamps mounted as Type A have several of the Type A traits, but not necessarily all, same for B and C. So this represents my 'best guess" as to Die Type. i will revisit in a month or two when I complete the Type Sage stamps and decide/prepare to offer up the numerous lots of each denomination (most of them) I have. Up next the 4 and 10 centimes, which although there are numerous shades, there is only a single Die, so some relief for the remainder of the 2nd issues.
|
|
stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
Member is Online
|
Post by stainlessb on Feb 4, 2022 21:56:33 GMT
Yvert #88 Type II, second issues 4 centimes. #66 is listed as violet-brown on azure.... which I come to accept as a very faint bluish underprinting/background, and which also is difficult to scan, but not impossible to see under a 10 K lamp. The first issuance was in September 1877, and it was not until 1881 that the next shade id identified (Lilac-brown on yellow grey). There are no Die variants, jusr color shades.. below, are 4 stamps with postmarks that places them in the date range of the first 'shade'. and one unused that shows a bit more Brown-Red, of which there is only one listed shade 88b (1891), and it is listed as being on 'chamois' background, which seems to be from previous issues an off-white/slightly manilla tone.... Although it doesn't show well in the scan the #4 stamp has the greater 'bluish" background, followed by #3, then #5...and #1.... well not so much at all! This denomination was in print from 9/1877 to late 1900, so clears dates are helpful but not conclusive... I wish there was a published catalogue with shades, but I understand (maybe) why this would be difficult, and also understand why some catalogues listed fewer shades, or as with a few, only one color for each denomination
|
|
stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
Member is Online
|
Post by stainlessb on Feb 7, 2022 23:00:21 GMT
a wing and a prayer... Yvert # 88 4 centimes violet-brown and shades.... from a lot of 58 stamps this is my best guess unsure of top left or bottom right.... will look again in a few moths after the dust settles- next up 10 centimes - black on lilac .... only 11 listed shade
|
|
stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
Member is Online
|
Post by stainlessb on Feb 9, 2022 0:19:31 GMT
In Maury, Ceres, & Dallay (hereafter M,C,&D 2009) 2009 lists 11 color varieties for Yvert #89 10 centimes Type II 2nd issue.... jump ahead to Spink|Maury 2022-23 (hereafter S|M) and there are but two (2) color variants #89 and 89a -in MC&D the catalogue #'s are 88 ->88j. The S|M 89a corresponds to MC&D 89c. Neither offers much of a discussion. and for point of reference- Brunel 1896 list four (4) colors, Ceres 2003 lists the same 2 as S|M, and Marianne lists eight (8)..... Yvert & Tellier lists the same two as MC&D and Ceres as they in somewhat the same order as MC&D aside from skipping over MCD a ->d - all of which are slate on violet or lilac in varying decrees of depth. I can accept the differences as it seems to follow a similar path for each denomination, but I like th detail and I DO SEE more than just 2 or 4 color variants. In MC&D, 89a-d there is a small note reference 1st, 2nd...5th tirage (google translates to 'draw').... 88a slate on violet is noted as 1st and 5th tirage 88b slate on lilac is noted as 2nd and 3rd titage 88c pale slate on lilac as 3rd tirage 88d light slate on purple as 4th tirage does anyone who reads this post have any idea what this refers to??? I have searched every which way I can think of with nothing coming up that helps, aside from a website that lists 3 color variants It is more of an academic curiosity as there's enough color variant to work on below is a scan of a sampling of what I have (~80-90 stamps). The slate (upper) is easy to distinquish from the black (lower). The scan doesn't show the "on color" but I included one stamp with selvedge what shows some coloring (although the plastic from my stock card isn't helpful) Under a 10000K light the background colors are easier see, and there is a black on whitish (that's Google translation for blanchatre which is pretty easy to pick out (bottom middle) the ones in the upper row actually have a pale lilac /light purple coloring, which is what the top right is (I'm leaning toward slight purple for it # 89a) I have checked to make sure there are no later issue Type I (Type II in some catalogues, and these are all Type II (3rd row # 5 is hard to ID, but I think I can seae a trace of the top of the INV and it is under the U) anyway, if anybody has any additional info I'd be most appreciative!!!!
|
|