stainlessb
Member 
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Jan 4, 2020 3:16:23 GMT
I periodically go off on divergent mental pathways of thoughts.... and the following question came to me....
regardless of country, a stamp is identified (example) as #96 green, with various nuances described as 96a, 96b, 96c etc.,
If one collects the shades.nuances.... is there any such thing as #96? or is that just a general number for the collector who collects "one of each"
or to put it more simply..... "riddle me this Batman?"
musings on a Friday night
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cjd
Member
Posts: 1,107 
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Post by cjd on Jan 4, 2020 3:27:09 GMT
If there is a 96, a 96a, a 96b and a 96c, and those additional entries are all listed shades, then there are four total stamps to collect, in four different shades/colors. In other words, 96 is not a catchall for any one of the three listed shades.
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tobben63
Member
Stamp eat sleep repeat
Posts: 1,866
What I collect: I collect to much, world wide!
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Post by tobben63 on Jan 4, 2020 5:12:42 GMT
I think that if there is a nuance any catalogue will treat the stamp with a number + leter (or something else) I have checked innside two of my main catalogues Michel and Facit and they do it that way. But among collectors many os us just collect the "open space" in some pre-printed album, the number is enough. I use only the the number without the suffix a lot, but when I relay want to tell what I mean I have to use the suffix to. So if a collector ask me for #96 he/she get the most common or the one I have the most of. I have scanned a page in Michel and Facit to show that the always use suffix. Fist the number, but there is no description or value on that line. Then comes 'a' nuance with description and value, and so on. The same with paper types. Facit  Michel  So, in my opinion #96 is not a real accurate stamp, but is referring to #96a, #96b, #96c etc. Therefore it is 3 stamps, not 4. PS: Note that Facit is written in Swedish/English and therefore a must for all Nordic/Scandinavia collectors. Lot of nuances and paper on the early stamps here.  |
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kasvik
Member
Posts: 543
What I collect: Cancels mostly, especially Sweden Gävle and Lidingö, Switzerland Geneva, Germany Pforzheim
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Post by kasvik on Jan 4, 2020 11:14:19 GMT
My attitude is cautious, albeit based on my Sweden experience alone. Nuances are everything with classic Sweden through the 1870s Ring types (through F27). The printing was semi-professional and the control over inks was rustic. Even during that notoriously sloppy era, only a few nuances are readily distinguished (thank goodness for the Coat of Arms F9i in ultramarine!). Many sub-species in the catalogues are indistinguishable to my eyes.
What nuance is my icon stamp (F10) to the left? I wish, but have to decline. My personal booger-bears are nuances of Sweden’s later Oscar IIs (F52-60) and Gustav Vs (F75-96). Yes, there are catalogued nuances. But for most, there is just no way. And I cannot pin a reliable chronology, regardless of what Facit says.
Sometimes nuancing in the catalogues clearly was the personal project of an inspired editor. And once a new catalogue number is created, it stays in there forever. Some of these distinctions actually do take hold, like paper types for Swedish coils from the 1920s. Others fade to the shadows, preserved mostly in the Facit numbering, where no anachronism is forgotten.
My rule (when I'm feeling rulish): rely on authenticators like Dr. Helena Obermüller Wilén. I don’t have complete confidence in her, but the Sweden market certainly does. If a nuance is authenticated by Helena, I’m not throwing away my money, without abandoning my skeptic’s gimlet eye.
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angore
Member
Posts: 5,343
What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on Jan 4, 2020 12:21:36 GMT
In the Scott world, the major number will usually represent one specific variety (usually the first) with shades or other variables as varieties. If you purchase the major number you could get any one of the varieties if the seller does not specialize or misses it.
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kgvistamps
Member
Posts: 201
What I collect: British Colonies - King George VI from all countries and King Edward VII & King George V from the West Indies.
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Post by kgvistamps on Jan 4, 2020 14:43:28 GMT
I collect British Colonies, and there are many shades listed in the Stanley Gibbons Catalogue. They are typically listed in order of appearance where there were a lot of different printings of the stamp. So the primary number would be the way the stamp was described as it was originally listed. Then when there are multiple printings if a significant change comes along it is listed as the "a" variety and if the date is recorded that is also included. There are cases where there are six listings so you might see numbers all the way to the "f".
This was especially true for stamps where the color of the paper changed like the 3d issues of the early King George V era. The sources of the paper changed which resulted in additional listings.
Cayman Islands SG 45 (3d yellow) is an example. Here are the various Gibbons listings for this stamp.
SG 45 3d Purple on Yellow Paper 1914
SG 45a 3d Purple on Yellow Paper - White Back 1913
SG 45b 3d Purple on Lemon Paper 1918
SG 45c 3d Purple on Orange-Buff Paper 1920
SG 45d 3d Purple on Buff Paper 1920
SG 45e 3d Purple on Pale Yellow Paper 1920
I am not sure why the white back is out of sequence.
Except for the white back, Scott numbered them all as Scott 37. Scott calls the white back surface color and numbered is as Scott 45.
Here is a link to my website showing these stamps if you want to see the color differences.
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stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Jan 4, 2020 15:19:41 GMT
i pretty much figured this was the case, but thought I'd toss it out for discussion. I have noticed lots sold "with nuances" still described only as the primary catalogue number. The subset (a, b. etc.,) applies not only to shades, but also variants, paper, (often in no particular order) and then in some catalogues there are Majors (15A) and then "minors" (15Aa) and so it goes. There must be references wholly focused on nuances and varieties, but thus far with many I need to rely on a written description which isn't always clear, or the photo small and pixelates when you try to enlarge.
Personally, the challenge is deciphering the "devil in the details", knowing full well that some of my interpretations may well be incorrect....
peu importe
Thanks for TSF!!! without which I might just collect to cover the space on the pre-printed pages
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brightonpete
Departed
Rest in Peace
On a hike at Goodrich-Loomis
Posts: 5,110
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Post by brightonpete on Jan 4, 2020 16:20:27 GMT
Every catalogue publisher seems to have their own idea of how to number. You just have to go with the flow when it comes to using the various catalogues!
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philatelia
Member
Captain Jack - my best kiloware find ever!
Posts: 3,404
What I collect: Ireland, Japan, Scandy, USA, Venezuela, Vatican, Bermuda, Austria
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Post by philatelia on Jan 4, 2020 16:43:44 GMT
I’m impressed with how the Colnect Wiki is compiling data on shades and varieties from ALL catalogs and sources. I’ve been working on Finland and by using their “variants” link you can see multiple varieties from different sources. I learned about varieties I’ve never heard of from books I don’t have. For example, there are multiple shades listing from a Finnish source called LaPe. I believe this is where philately needs to go - compile all the data from myriad sources in one place and make the information free. I’ve already made a few contributions to the data base and plan to continue.  |
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cjd
Member
Posts: 1,107
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Post by cjd on Jan 5, 2020 3:34:53 GMT
I've been futzing with my South Africa KGV stamps, so I have Gibbons open to that page. It provides a good example, with not too much typing involved.
SG3 is green. SG3b is blue-green. SG3c is yellow-green. Three distinct entries, three distinct colors to collect.
(SG3a is the doubleprint variety, in case anyone is wondering.)
SG6 is dull purple. SG6a is deep purple. Two catalogue listings, two colors.
Yes, some sellers will stop at "SG6" for either SG6 or SG6a. Even more so in the U.S., were many dealers use Scott. You can make great finds in those books.
Now, for SG9, the ultramarine, there is only one numbered entry, but the catalogue also notes "shades" so you may find three examples that all look a little different - according to SG, they're all SG9.
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angore
Member
Posts: 5,343
What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on Jan 5, 2020 12:17:37 GMT
Since I use Steiner pages as the foundation, I work with Scott but since I collect GB and British Commonwealth I have SG as well. I do not collect shades as a rule but focus on details more objective (perforations, tagging, etc). I am transferring Machins from a Scott album but following SG more so for any Scott stamp there may be 3 or 4 SG versions.
This is my upgraded sheet and collecting deeper than SG Concise. The question for all is where do you stop?
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kgvistamps
Member
Posts: 201
What I collect: British Colonies - King George VI from all countries and King Edward VII & King George V from the West Indies.
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Post by kgvistamps on Jan 5, 2020 15:51:46 GMT
When it comes to the Machins - you stop just before you go insane. LOL Congratulations on your pursuit Mr. Angore. I consider them to be the most difficult stamps to decipher of any of them. I have accumulated probably a thousand and have only been able to get thru the original sterling values. The rest are sitting in my closet waiting for the day when I summon the nerve to attack them again.
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philatelia
Member
Captain Jack - my best kiloware find ever!
Posts: 3,404
What I collect: Ireland, Japan, Scandy, USA, Venezuela, Vatican, Bermuda, Austria
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Post by philatelia on Jan 5, 2020 15:57:19 GMT
When it comes to the Machins - you stop just before you go insane. LOL Congratulations on your pursuit Mr. Angore. I consider them to be the most difficult stamps to decipher of any of them. I have accumulated probably a thousand and have only been able to get thru the original sterling values. The rest are sitting in my closet waiting for the day when I summon the nerve to attack them again.
  Funny! Or you stop BECAUSE you HAVE gone insane. I am already nutty enough so I give mine to a friend who is a really tough fella and can take it. |
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angore
Member
Posts: 5,343
What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on Jan 6, 2020 13:26:12 GMT
Ha. I actually think I reached critical mass (meaning understanding) to make progress in sorting Machins efficiency since 90% is just dealing with the tagging but I am focusing only on sterling and decimal/NVI (standard and elliptical perforations) - minimal self-adhesives and security features. I also learned my Raytek versalume UV light works the best for GB stamps of the UV lights I have. The Adminware site and his pages were a crucial aspect since the SG Concise has scattered the listing (some in X/Y groups, some with standard numbers, other in MS sheets). I have them now all in a spreadsheet so that really helped.
To stay sane, you need to decide the limits for Machins and finally reached that decision so I know the end goal. I know what I want to ignore.
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Funny!