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Post by gstamps on Jan 28, 2023 21:26:39 GMT
Hi stanley64Nice example of testing. I hope I passed it. Plate flaw is the outer line that appears in the lower right? I hope there are study groups for these Ceres stamps otherwise it is very hard work alone. Regarding the German stamps with plate flaws, I found many confirmations from the results of these study groups.
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stanley64
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Post by stanley64 on Jan 30, 2023 12:02:09 GMT
Not so much a test gstamps , but perhaps more a "Where's Waldo" for others following the thread. In either case, you are spot on :-) Myself, it is not so much the identification or confirmation of the cliché or plate flaw as there are plenty of resources available both on-line and personally. The real challenge is locating sheets or fragments that allows one to plate the faults to their actual position. 1914 MOZAMBIQUE - 2 c. Carmim (Acetinado Espesso, Pontinhado Horizontal)
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stanley64
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Post by stanley64 on Feb 18, 2023 7:40:25 GMT
Inspired, in part, by the recent posting of the Guyana overprints by guyana1230 as shown here, I thought to show the overprints of the Ceres issues,
These surcharged stamps would be put into circulation by the ordinance of September 19, 1928 with the intent of making use of the large quantities of stamps withdrawn from circulation and stored at the “Casa da Moeda” Mint; the goal was to reduce orders to the English firm, Thomas De La Rue, which had been printing the 7th Ceres stamp series, as a cost-savings measure.
Have fun and happy collecting!
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stanley64
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Post by stanley64 on Feb 19, 2023 10:12:25 GMT
In addition to the perforations, different papers and clichés, this particular set with its bar overprints offers its own area of study as illustrated in this album page,
Always on the look-out for items that will make my collection unique...
Have fun and happy collecting!
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Post by cinderever on May 11, 2023 20:26:12 GMT
Have enjoyed reading through the various "Ceres" discussion threads. Collecting "Ceres" is kinda like collecting Machins. How far one decides to "drill down" is framed chiefly by one's patience and enthusiasm for the subject matter. Would likely be a Level 2. Despite numerous attempts, the paper types continue to confound me.
Particularly appreciate the philatelic scholarship of Stanley64 et al. The four-star positions (re colonial issues) provided an "ah-ha moment" for me.
Late last year purchased the new Stanley Gibbons' Portugal and Colonies catalogue. It truly is a well-crafted philatelic reference work. Purchased it in the hope it would provide addtl tips for distinguishing btwn the various "Ceres" issues. Alas, the hoped for "spotting secrets" were absent (at least in the copy I received).
Even tried careful placement of the still-to-be identified candidates (in 102 cards) on top of the new SG catalogue. Despite the passage of several days, no results appeared.
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renden
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Post by renden on May 11, 2023 20:49:38 GMT
Have enjoyed reading through the various "Ceres" discussion threads. Collecting "Ceres" is kinda like collecting Machins. How far one decides to "drill down" is framed chiefly by one's patience and enthusiasm for the subject matter. Would likely be a Level 2. Despite numerous attempts, the paper types continue to confound me. Particularly appreciate the philatelic scholarship of Stanley et al. The four-star positions provided an "ah-ha moment" for me. Last last year purchased the new Stanley Gibbons' Portugal and Colonies catalogue. It truly is a well-crafted philatelic reference work. Purchased it in the hope it would provide addtl tips for distinguishing btwn the various "Ceres" issues. Alas, the hoped for "spotting secrets" were absent (at least in the copy I received). Even tried careful placement of the still-to-be identified candidates (in 102 cards) on top of the new SG catalogue. Despite the passage of several days, no results appeared. Good luck amigo !! Have gone through this and Stan stainlessb is my HERO !!!! René
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stanley64
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Post by stanley64 on May 12, 2023 14:11:21 GMT
Late last year purchased the new Stanley Gibbons' Portugal and Colonies catalogue. It truly is a well-crafted philatelic reference work. Purchased it in the hope it would provide addtl tips for distinguishing btwn the various "Ceres" issues. Alas, the hoped for "spotting secrets" were absent (at least in the copy I received). Glad to see the thread is a benefit to collector's of the Portuguese Ceres issues :-)
Curious though, about "spotting secrets"? Is there something specific or an area that you had hoped would be discussed in the catalogue and was not? If there is a secret out there about the Ceres issues, I too would like to know. As for the various papers, building a good reference collection is a worthwhile effort.
In the meantime, if you have any specific questions about a particular issue, let us know...
Have fun and happy collecting!
P.S. I appreciate the comment about collecting level cinderever - it made me think :-)
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stanley64
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Post by stanley64 on May 12, 2023 14:45:20 GMT
Recently took a chance on a small lot, "Portuguese Mozambique 1914-1931 Ceres series MH & Used",
Whilst it always fun to go through a small grouping of Portuguese Ceres, i.e. papers, clichés, misperfs, etc., it is the stamp on the last row, second from the left that caught my eye. The 20 Escudo is one of the high value issues for any of the colonies and well known to be forged, but in this case, the perforations looked correct, the lettering was clean & crisp, and there appeared to be no hook with Ceres's left arm, although this was a bit of a strain given the image posted by the seller. In the end, I was not disappointed with my auction win,
Moçambique 20E. 1926, 12 x 11 1/2, lustrado espesso, a thick paper (Afinsa nº 259.)
Have fun and happy collecting!
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stanley64
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Post by stanley64 on May 17, 2023 8:56:08 GMT
From the recent lote purchased, we find these two clichés, Moçambique 1914 - 2 1/2 c. Violeta Cinzento (Acetinado Pontinhado Vertical) cliché 'CLXXXVI' (MM)
Moçambique 1922 - 40c. Verde Azul (Liso) cliché (n/c)
In his text, Os Selos Ceres das Colónias Portuguêsas, Dr. José Manuel Miranda da Mota catalogues over 350 clichés and I have yet to find them all...
Have fun and happy collecting!
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stanley64
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Post by stanley64 on Jun 8, 2023 15:03:26 GMT
Continuing with issues from Moçambique and with reference to this thread here, the 15 C. stamp was issued only in 1914. However, the stamp is known to exist on several paper types and two colours,
Moçambique 1914, 15 C.
Left - Right :
stamp 1, lilás vermelho (red lilac) - 15 x 14, porcelana médio (coated or chalk-surfaced paper) stamp 2, lilás vermelho (red lilac) - 12 x 11 1/2, acetinado (satin paper)
stamp 3, rosa malva (mauve rose) 12 x 11 1/2 on liso or smooth paper
If anyone, including yourself paul1 , has reference to a latter issue with the same value i.e. 15 C., please do share an image or catalogue number...
Have fun and happy collecting!
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Post by paul1 on Jun 8, 2023 15:52:29 GMT
you are correct stanley64 - according to SG, the 15 centavos value showing Ceres for the first time (Type 13) - appears, they say, in 1913, and is SG 212 with colour described as claret, with perfs. 15 x 14 on chalk surfaced paper. I had been looking at just the 15c. value of which there are a few with other heads prior to 1913, plus the fact that my Gibbons catalogue is from 1961 - I'm hoping to replace this with a C21 copy very soon - unfortunately, I don't have a specialized catalogue though sounds as though you may have.
Staying with SG, Type 13 appears next in 1921 on unsurfaced paper, perfs. 12 x 11.1/2, with colour remaining as'claret' - this is SG catalogue No. 276.
Still with SG, the next and what appears to be the final outing for T13, is with the 1922 - 26 issues on unsurfaced paper with perfs. 12 x 11.1/2, and this time the colour is described as 'dull rose', with SG catalogue No. 301.
I think this covers the Ceres T 13 issue in the 15 centavos value - but only according to my SG catalogue. It would seem obvious that the different SG catalogue Nos. are attributable to the variations in perfs. and colour differences. As we know, colour descriptions are fraught with personal interpretation, though now I've had my cataracts done I can tell he difference between b. & W.
P.S. - apologies stanley64 for not complimenting you on the 15c. 'Ceres' you've shown - they're good clean examples of stamps that are now probably in excess of a century in age. A major problem here, at least for some of us, is that of using different catalogues when discussing specific issues - SG for this side of the pond, and Scott for your side - with the added thrills of different catalogue Nos. etc.
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stanley64
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Post by stanley64 on Jun 9, 2023 8:37:55 GMT
In addition to SG, Scott, let us through into the mix Mundifil ;-) It is all good though paul1 regardless of the catalogue used as I am seeing the same issue between Scott, Unitrade and Lyman's for those collecting Canada's Small Queen issues; I guess, without a defintive work, one would need them all.
For the Portuguese Ceres issues, there is one for me and it is my sole reference - Dr. José Manuel Miranda da Mota's text, Os Selos Ceres das Colónias Portuguêsas as shown in this posting here. It is not an expensive text and may even be available through the UK's Portuguese Philatelic Society (PPS).
As for my own stamps, thanks for the compliment. I appreciate that the previous owners took care of them and hope that I am able to do the same...
Have fun and happy collecting!
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Post by paul1 on Jun 9, 2023 9:05:07 GMT
thanks for the added information stanley64 - I've been conned into going shopping this morning, but have already prepared and only need to take some pix now, to add to my comments illustrating the SG colours I mentioned, which may help a little with my post from yesterday. Will post in an hour or so.
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stanley64
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Post by stanley64 on Jun 9, 2023 10:37:27 GMT
Look forward to seeing what you have come up with paul1 :-) As mentioned, my primary source of reference for the Portuguese Ceres issues is Dr. Mota's text and although not complete, it is the most comprehensive I have found to date. For myself, one of the attractions with the series, in addition to the image of Ceres, is the 'thrill of discovery' as in this example, Angola 1914 - 1 1/2 C. Castanho 15 x 14 (Acetinado - Pontinhado Vertical)
From the sheet fragment, rows 1 and 2 contain two clichés not catalogued and on row 3, one that is cliché 'CCX' (MM). As with all non-catalogued clichés, one needs to keep their eyes open for other examples to proof consistency of the printing plates and not an one-off error...
Have fun and happy collecting!
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Post by paul1 on Jun 9, 2023 11:55:56 GMT
as mentioned, I was unable to add pix to support my reference to SG catalogue colours - regarding the discussion about the 15c Ceres issues started by stanley64. My catalogue for Portugal/Colonies is a b. & w. antique effort, so no good for colours, though I do now have a 2011 version arriving in a few days - but pro tem thought it might be of interest to attach pix of some of the particular SG colours I've mentioned - 'claret' and 'dull rose'. Some time back in the early 1930s, I assume, SG issued the first of their 'Colour Guides for Stamp Collectors' - the earliest example I have is dated 1938 which they called an 'Improved Edition' and sold for 2/6d. - I also have a 1969 Guide which doubled in price to 5/- (just prior to U.K. decimal conversion) - examples of these charts are on this forum, though I forget exactly now under which sub-heading. In the early 1930s charts, SG methodology was to show colours by means of a stylized stamp - reminds me of a C. of G. H. issue - and the Guide was adorned with 100 separate stuck-on examples of this faux stamp showing the entire range of colours as used by SG in their catalogues - these 'stamps' showed the name of SG and the words COLOUR CHART. Later guides became more akin to a paint colour chart with simple rectangular blocks of colour, but it appears that SG chose not to deviate the capacity of the chart from the original 100 colours/shades. The early Guides make for interesting reading where it appears that a few specific colour references were needed as qualification for particular stamps - the Newfoundland 1861 - 2 'Lake', likewise the 'Orange-Vermilion' for Newfoundland 1860. The Azure found in some French Colonies seems also to have required particular mention - none of this additional information appears in later Guides - and unfortunately the shade 'dull rose' appears to have been dropped in later Guides. So, attached are images from both the '38 and '69 SG colour Guides, for 'claret' and 'dull rose' - the obvious down side is the old chestnut debate about how, as individuals, we see any given colour, particularly with the increasing problems that come with age. From experience, that I'd rather not have had, can say with certainty that vision deterioration caused by cataracts alters what was once 'white daylight' to yellowish - fortunately, it's quite staggering how surgical removal of the problem shows a stark return to 'white' vision. Couple of questions stanley64 - do you know the date of the good Doctor's monograph, and grateful if you will explain the philatelic meaning of 'cliche' please. Many thanks.
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Post by paul1 on Jun 9, 2023 12:00:11 GMT
sorry, forgot to comment on your latest addition of the Ceres Angola 1914 - 1 1/2 C. Castanho 15 x 14 (Acetinado - Pontinhado Vertical) - will come back with a well deserved eulogy, soon :-)
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stanley64
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Post by stanley64 on Jun 9, 2023 15:48:08 GMT
Thanks for sharing paul1 and the colour 'chart' along with their descriptions reminds me of similar examples where actual stamps were used to prepare a "colour guide" to the Small Queens of Canada; these are fun to see :-) As for two colours: dull rose and claret, comparing them side-by-side with the earlier images of the posted Ceres stamps, I think we have a match. I did try using the PERFOMaster4000 software for an actual RGB comparison, but alas was not conclusive enough to add to my own registry in the application itself. Pantone colour names are great for talking about colours, but an actual value e.g. RGB is best for comparison.
Regarding Dr. Miranda da Mota's text, Os Selos Ceres das Colónias Portuguêsas, it was published in 2015 in an edition of 300. Although I no longer see it being advertised on some of the Portuguese dealer's websites, it still may be available for those interested from Núcleo Filatélico do Ateneu Comercial do Porto (NFACP).
On the topic of 'cliché', it is those dots, scratches or other anomalies found on the printing plate that are transferred to the final product; some can be quite obvious, others, not so much. Here is another example,
Moçambique Ceres 1914 - 5c. 15 x14 Azul Escuro (Amarelado Pontinhado Horizontal) cliché 'XLVIII' (MM) on the right-hand stamp.
Have fun and happy collecting!
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Post by paul1 on Jun 9, 2023 16:05:30 GMT
thanks stanley64 - yes, this break in the frame is very obvious unlike some that need a lens to see. o.k., so we're talking about plate flaws then mostly, but presumably specks of dust or other foreign bodies might also be responsible rather than an actual flaw in the metal.
This joined pair are sumptuous and made all the more interesting by the frame break.
Your part sheet of the Angola 1914 - 1 1/2 C. is a real gem and great find - multiple chiche's on a part sheet make for very interesting collecting - this abundance of errors is almost on a par with some of the Union of S.A. issues, where errors are commonplace at times.
thanks for the information on Dr. Miranda da Mota's text - I shall poke around in due course.
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stanley64
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Post by stanley64 on Aug 14, 2023 8:22:55 GMT
In addition to adding several large fragments and even some complete sheets of the Portuguese Ceres issues (plating joy), these proofs are a welcome addition to the collection,
Have fun and happy collecting!
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stanley64
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Post by stanley64 on Aug 23, 2023 7:23:09 GMT
Flyspecking & clichés of the Portuguese Ceres issue,
1914 MOZAMBIQUE - 2 c. Carmim
Have fun and happy collecting!
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stanley64
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Post by stanley64 on Aug 25, 2023 7:18:50 GMT
For my own collecting interests, 'flyspecking' is only the beginning. Once one has discovered a fault or cliché on a given stamp, the next step is to plate the position where the stamp would have come from on full sheet. Fortunately, there are several texts available that describe known clichés and their position available to those interested and have been shared in earlier postings. However, not all printing anomalies have been catalogued; either the cliché itself or its position. There is plenty of opportunity still out there for new discoveries as in the example shown in the previous post. The particular cliché was found on a small sheet fragment purchased earlier in the year and is not catalogued,
These plate flaws can result from 'wear and tear' or are a result of foreign material on the plates during the printing process, one needs to confirm is they are consistent or simply occasional occurrences.
Have fun and happy collecting!
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stanley64
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Post by stanley64 on Aug 25, 2023 7:19:20 GMT
The discovery of this second fragment showing the same cliché, one gets closer to being able to plating its position,
With two sheet fragments in hand, the error can now definitively be plated to Position No. 145 from the original sheet of 200 based on other clichés, sheet selvage and knowing original sheet size. The Portuguese Ceres issues where printed in sheets of 100 (10 x10), 180 (20 x 9), 200 (20 x 10) and are catalogued based on paper type.
Have fun and happy collecting!
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stanley64
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Post by stanley64 on Aug 25, 2023 7:21:12 GMT
This third and final sheet fragment containing the same cliché completes the story,
Using a spreadsheet helps to keep the different sheets and their details in one place for both the initial plating exercise and for future reference,
With magnifying loupe in hand, one is ready for the next discovery...
Have fun and happy collecting!
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stanley64
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Post by stanley64 on Sept 22, 2023 7:24:59 GMT
Over the summer I added to the collection several full or partial sheet of the Ceres issues including this one,
Moçambique 1914 - 2c. Carmim, perf. 15 x 14 (Acetinado Pontinhado Horizontal)
Whilst the clichés with catalogue reference, i.e. 'CXCI' & 'CCXLVII' are known and well documented including their sheet or plate location, it is the non-catalogued (N/C) one that caught my attention. From another sheet I was able to confirm that the one in plate position n.º 15 is a constant plate variety,
Moçambique 1921 - 12c. Castanho Claro, perf. 12 x 11½ (Acetinado Pontinhado Horizontal)
The Portuguese Ceres issues were printed using the typography or letterpress method and the mystery is as to how a dot or spot of ink could 'float' in the recessed or negative space of the printing plate, N/C cliché plate position n.º 15 - spot in Ceres' vestements
More to come, as I think the mystery has been solved...
Have fun and happy collecting!
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stanley64
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What I collect: Canada, USA, Netherlands, Portugal & Colonies, Antarctic Territories and anything that catches my eye...
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Post by stanley64 on Sept 23, 2023 9:00:39 GMT
As mentioned, the Portuguese Ceres issues were printed using the typography or letterpress method,
So, how does a 'spot' of ink as shown in the cliché above appear when the ink is transferred directly to the raised surface of the printing plate as part of the process? It was a question or mystery until other examples in the collection were examined including the proofs shared earlier here.
With loupe in hand and Sherlock Holmes cap nearby, looking at the two vertical lines beneath the ink spot or cliché, the lines are almost equal in height, whereas in other instances where the variety does not exist, the left-hand line extends ~0,3 mm above the other. I posit that the cliché is a result of the one line being worn down and the ink 'pooling' at the end which was still able to make contact with the paper during the printing process.
Have fun and happy collecting!
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tobben63
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Post by tobben63 on Oct 4, 2023 17:41:28 GMT
I'm sorting trough Portugal now (organize duplicates for sale) and I had a lot of Ceres stamps. I will put these aside to do a proper identifying (try to) later. But here is what I have...
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stanley64
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What I collect: Canada, USA, Netherlands, Portugal & Colonies, Antarctic Territories and anything that catches my eye...
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Post by stanley64 on Oct 4, 2023 18:15:18 GMT
With the sheen gone from our lady Ceres due to the wear and tear on the plates, the seventh series was produced by Thomas De La Rue & Co. Ltd of London. Of the twenty-values produced, the lowest denominated issue was 2 C.
The 2 C. issue like the others in the series is perforated 13 1/2 x 14 and printed using the lithographic technique on pontinhado or lozenged paper.
However I only note one colour for the issue in any of the resources I have consulted, chocolate or dark brown, which does not explain the second stamp in this line-up and its "grey-brown" colouring.
If anyone has additional information or insights, please do share...
Happy collecting!
With a recent posting from an on-line seller, it would appear that the grey-brown colour is not a changling, but instead is a printing error?
Not sure if it would qualify as an alternate colour in a catalogue listing though, as the issue was printed in a single colour, i.e. dark brown, using lithography and I can think no explanation for the shade difference...
Have fun and happy collecting!
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JeffS
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Post by JeffS on Oct 4, 2023 20:01:28 GMT
stanley64 my first response is that it IS a color changing due to exposure to sunlight which affected the red in the brown ink.
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JeffS
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Post by JeffS on Oct 4, 2023 21:33:10 GMT
stanley64 . I note that in one place you state printing by lithography and another by typography
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tobben63
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Post by tobben63 on Oct 5, 2023 4:42:35 GMT
stanley64 It could be an error during printing, but... The seller write that the block has no gum, why? Has it been soaked? why? I think there is a bit to many loose treads here If it was a printing error, I think that it would have been mentioned in some of the catalogues or special catlogues. But it is an interesting object, but not to that price.....
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