susiecc
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What I collect: General US, Precancels, Monaco, India Feudatory States, the World!!
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Post by susiecc on Feb 20, 2020 19:19:26 GMT
Hello all, I've been working on my Germany collection and came across a stamp that I thought was a 1921 Numerals Black Olive. It measures to 21.5 x 26 and that's consistent with the year. Perf seems to be correct as well. However, it's supposed to have a Lozenge watermark and that I do not see. Have I misidentified this stamp? If I have, can someone point me in the right direction? If I haven't, then why doesn't it seem to have a watermark?
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renden
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What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Feb 20, 2020 19:36:11 GMT
@ susiecc Here are 2 copies of Scott 138, one used and one mint - both have the 125 (lozenges) wmks, visible without watermark fluid - have you tried some fluid ? Good Luck and nice to see your post I did a back 600 dpi scan on Germany 137 and 138 and the lozenges are present René
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khj
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Post by khj on Feb 20, 2020 20:26:27 GMT
As shown in René's pics, the lozenge watermark is usually pretty easy to see -- usually don't need watermark fluid (can often see just putting it face down on a dark surface, or looking through the back of the stamp while holding it up in front of light bulb).
The later network watermark (called waffle in Michel), is often more difficult to see clearly. If you don't see the watermark holding up to a light, there is a good possibility you have the network watermark (#126 in Scott) and you may need to use watermark fluid to confirm.
Scott Germany #138, wmk #125 lozenge Scott Germany #162, wmk #126 network
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tobben63
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Post by tobben63 on Feb 20, 2020 20:41:45 GMT
If you go to Colnect you will get more info.
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susiecc
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What I collect: General US, Precancels, Monaco, India Feudatory States, the World!!
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Post by susiecc on Feb 20, 2020 23:25:32 GMT
Hi and thank you. I looked for the watermark. I did hold it up to the light first, but when that didn't work, I tried watermark fluid. Nothing was revealed. I suppose it could be so light it doesn't show, although it didn't look like there were relics of a watermark either.
Also, I first did go to Scott Germany and then to Colnect, but all of the references to the type of stamp that this is show that they all have watermarks. Also, Stampworld showed two different versions (different years) and both showed watermarks as well. The 1921 seemed to be closest, but without a watermark, I wasn't sure and since everything in the references had watermarks, I wasn't sure what I had. Forgery? A black olive used has a higher value than the olive.
I do appreciate all the help. This forum is great!
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renden
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What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Feb 21, 2020 0:02:32 GMT
Hi and thank you. I looked for the watermark. I did hold it up to the light first, but when that didn't work, I tried watermark fluid. Nothing was revealed. I suppose it could be so light it doesn't show, although it didn't look like there were relics of a watermark either. Also, I first did go to Scott Germany and then to Colnect, but all of the references to the type of stamp that this is show that they all have watermarks. Also, Stampworld showed two different versions (different years) and both showed watermarks as well. The 1921 seemed to be closest, but without a watermark, I wasn't sure and since everything in the references had watermarks, I wasn't sure what I had. Forgery? A black olive used has a higher value than the olive. I do appreciate all the help. This forum is great! We are glad to help ! What watermark fluid did you use and did you put the stamp in front of a black background (not in the light) ? René
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khj
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Post by khj on Feb 21, 2020 0:13:46 GMT
Don't be discouraged. The particular stamp you showed just happens to have a combination of factors that make watermark detection difficult -- a lot of solid drab olive color combined with thick outlines, significant ink coverage from the cancel, oil-based canceller black ink that spreads out/through the paper (ironically, one sign of genuine postally used cancel)...
Don't expect to see the entire watermark clearly like the images in the catalog or the ones shown by René for your stamp. What you need to look for is a telltale sign of a single elongated diamond somewhere (as opposed to the rhombic shapes in wmk126 network).
That being said, to me, the back of your stamp looks like wmk125 lozenge.
I'll post a pic showing where I think the lozenge lines are, and also a pic showing where I think you should look to find the lines.
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khj
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Post by khj on Feb 21, 2020 0:49:38 GMT
OK, from left to right: left: your original backside image center: marked in black where I think the lozenge lines are (very approximate, I disregarded the line breaks) right: probably the best locations to see if you can spot an elongated diamond (if you see solids better than outlines, then the upper right red diamond may be easier); again, the marks are very very approximate locations That's where I "think" I see the diamonds. But you have the physical stamp and the watermark fluid, so... but I recommend holding up to a light first when trying to spot very localized areas. Knowing me, it will probably turn out to be the other watermark once you finish looking. k (aka, the guy with the wild/weird imagination when it comes to seeing watermarks that aren't there)
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khj
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Post by khj on Feb 21, 2020 1:51:24 GMT
I put the backside image though the image processing on RetroReveal. Here's one of the processed images that may or may not be useful. Please note, what you see and what I imagine may not necessarily be the same thing. It's really difficult to completely filter out the effects of the black cancel and olive green outlines from the actual watermark, whether by your brain or using RR.
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susiecc
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What I collect: General US, Precancels, Monaco, India Feudatory States, the World!!
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Post by susiecc on Feb 21, 2020 13:40:58 GMT
to renden: I used Clarity. It was in a black dish, but I also took it out after using the fluid and laid it on a black surface.
to khj: I love a wickedly creative imagination. I see what you're getting at. I think I'll scan it (this was just a phone shot) to see if I can get more detail. RetroReveal is very interesting. I wonder what would happen if I did a color separation of the image.
thank you both.
susiecc
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susiecc
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Posts: 63
What I collect: General US, Precancels, Monaco, India Feudatory States, the World!!
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Post by susiecc on Feb 21, 2020 14:13:28 GMT
khj... You're going to love this. I rescanned the back of the stamp at 200%, then dropped it into Photoshop and contrasted the heck out of it. Guess what what there?
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salentin
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collecting Germany,where I live and about 20 more countries,half of them in Asia east of the Indus
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Post by salentin on Feb 21, 2020 14:24:41 GMT
If I read the cancel correctly,it is dated ?0.1.22 (cannot read the hours). That means it must be Michel 159 (Scott 138),as Michel 178 (Scott 162) was issued in February 1922. Normally the watermark lozenges is easy to spot. But due to the bad quality (war-) paper,what was still in use,sometimes the watermark is difficult to see.
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susiecc
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What I collect: General US, Precancels, Monaco, India Feudatory States, the World!!
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Post by susiecc on Feb 21, 2020 14:42:02 GMT
Hi salentin. Yes, I had thought that was the date as well. When I was researching, and checked Scott I saw the 138. Supposedly, there are two colors, but Scott only shows the one. Colnect shows 2. Am I missing a listing for the second color in Scott or is is possibly a different year?
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khj
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Post by khj on Feb 21, 2020 22:50:58 GMT
Good spot on the cancel salentin! I was looking at the cancel on stamp posted by renden instead of the cancel on the stamp from susiecc. Yes, it must be lozenge watermark, and the lines do show in the high contrast processed pic that susiecc posted later. susiecc, to find the blackish olive variety in Scott, you have to go to the Scott Classic Specialized, where it is listed as Germany #138c. The Scott Standard Worldwide doesn't go into many of the color shades. Color varieties are often mis-IDed if you only look at a single stamp under conditions other than natural light, and color reproduction/accuracy is highly dependent on the scanner/monitor (we are all using different monitors and the color will not look the same if not calibrated). To convince yourself you have a Germany 138c, look for the common 138 in your collection/accumulation and put them side by side. The blackish olive will not only be a darker, but will also be noticeably "blacker". If only a slight difference, you simply have a "darker" olive green stamp (there will be variation from inking, sunlight exposure, chemical exposure...). See the example side by side scan below for 138 (left) vs 138c (right).
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susiecc
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What I collect: General US, Precancels, Monaco, India Feudatory States, the World!!
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Post by susiecc on Feb 22, 2020 6:28:00 GMT
Thank you khj. I pulled the darkest one I had from the zillions of duplicates and compared. It probably is the same olive, but a little darker. They look a lot different than your example, plus I scanned them together and the used one seems to be a touch smaller as well. I'll get the catalog you mentioned.
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khj
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Post by khj on Feb 22, 2020 7:34:42 GMT
Then I would agree that the left stamp is blackish olive. Plus, the cancel has bleed-thru, indicative of oil-based ink -- so that is promising for genuine postally used cancel (as opposed to pre-dated manufactured cancels produced in later years from the original cancellers but many with the incorrect type of ink). Congratulations! Hope you don't mind, I'm going to pilfer your pic for my reference archive.
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susiecc
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What I collect: General US, Precancels, Monaco, India Feudatory States, the World!!
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Post by susiecc on Feb 22, 2020 15:42:06 GMT
Pilfer away.
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anglobob
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Post by anglobob on Feb 23, 2020 23:17:38 GMT
A 10c stamp from French Guinea,with a cancellation from Conakry,dated 26 June,1916. According to my Gibbons and Dallay catalogue,this stamp does not exist.The 10c value from the 1913 set is vermillion and carmine according to Dallay,or rose and orahge red according toGibbons.This stamp is yellow with reddish/crimson centre. I know colours fade in sunlight or after soaking,but the cancellation is quite clear.I dn,t have a Maury or Yvert catalogue-would like to know what is listed there. Or maybe my eyesight is going and I have overlooked something ??
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Post by feebletodix on Feb 24, 2020 9:59:28 GMT
Its probably no help but SG list three 10c varieties under 1913 SG68 pink and red SG84 green & light green SG85 red & lilac
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anglobob
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Post by anglobob on Feb 24, 2020 11:41:08 GMT
Feebletodix.....thanks for the reply. I think SG 84 and 85 were issued later,1922-1926. The colour in the scan appears more orange than yellow.... Anglobob
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hrdoktorx
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Post by hrdoktorx on Feb 24, 2020 18:19:28 GMT
This stamp is listed in Yvert & Tellier as #67, with red-orange frame and carmine center.
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khj
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Post by khj on Feb 24, 2020 18:34:36 GMT
Agreed. In Scott, French Guinea #68(1913) red orange and rose. The stamp is unevenly faded and the paper appears to be toned (or maybe artifact of the scanning). You can see the red orange frame color drops significantly at bottom left corner, and the red orange color in the solid parts of the panels are very uneven.
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anglobob
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Post by anglobob on Feb 24, 2020 18:54:36 GMT
khj hrdoktorx
Thanks for the replies....my scanner makes it appear much more orange in colour too.No toning on back of stamp. Thanks again.... Anglobob
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khj
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Post by khj on Feb 24, 2020 19:33:47 GMT
Even if the scanning makes it appear more orange than it really is, to me it is still a color changeling. Below, circled in red is the obvious fading/unevenness in the red orange. While it is common to have little white specks in the panels, you should not have such large drop-outs. The toning I speak of is not overall paper toning, but what appears to be spotting/rust/foxing, circled in blue, but that may still be an artifact of the scanning or paper wrinkles/creases.
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WERT
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Post by WERT on Feb 24, 2020 19:46:13 GMT
Hi khj What you are looking at is what a lot of stamps go through over years of sunlight, oxidization, pollution, etc. Also whitish spots can be caused by poor inking, like ink drying out in the reservoir and becoming tacky.
Robert
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khj
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Post by khj on Feb 24, 2020 20:11:13 GMT
Also whitish spots can be caused by poor inking, like ink drying out in the reservoir and becoming tacky.
Yes, that can happen. But in this case I did not consider that since the color of the stamp is not red orange -- so I associated the large dropouts with the greater likelihood of what happened to the stamp after it was printed (i.e., color changeling). If there was a problem with ink drying out or becoming tacky, it seems unusual to me see such fine lines in the columns and at the top of the column to remain so sharp on a typographed stamps (I would think you should see some ink bulges/blots in the lines because of the tacky ink). My non-expert opinion. No doubt someone will post a specialized catalog snippet listing yellow & rose variety.
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WERT
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Post by WERT on Feb 24, 2020 20:14:36 GMT
Ok khj My opinion is from being a printer when i was younger. There may be others who tune in..Good luck.
Robert
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renden
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Post by renden on Feb 24, 2020 21:15:02 GMT
Ok khj My opinion is from being a printer when i was younger. There may be others who tune in..Good luck. Robert My late dad owned a Newspaper, printing office (big) etc.....and I learned the trade but that was in the early 60s and I trust your opinion
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WERT
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Post by WERT on Feb 24, 2020 21:27:20 GMT
Thanks Rene...Good for your Dad. Here are just a few machines i worked with..Older types.
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renden
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Post by renden on Feb 24, 2020 22:23:43 GMT
I just had a photo - he had 4 working full time as the newspaper was prepared (at the time) with blocks of lead letters hand by hand !! like a puzzle - it was a weekly not a daily (newspaper) WERTRené
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