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Post by stainlessb on Feb 22, 2023 19:48:37 GMT
For those not really deeply interested in the nuances of these stamps you may want to jump ahead, otherwise you may be asleep by the time you get to the end of this post! I am hoping when the book(s) by Storch and Francon arrive it will help to straighten this out. Below is the stamp that the close-ups were taken from. Postmark appears to be 15 January 1917 somewhere from the Seine region. There were no other Types issued prior to 1920, so we know this is in fact a Type IA I have cropped the Ceres details from above to nly show the Type IA and IB. As mentioned above, the head cap is not brought up by Ceres for Type I A or B, and I would ask that you scroll above to see the images fromMaury Ceres & Dallay 2009, (These are the same identical images in Spinks|Maurry 2018. Yvert & Tellier 2021 provide only a text description for differences (all types) but does provide the 25c b/w illustration, but only Type I, II, III & IV, no sub-types. Here is a translation of the text descriptions which pertain to the Type I (Google translate) Type I The upper branch of C is not barred and has a characteristic almost horizontal trace. The number 2 has a less hollow head than in the other types. The lower left tip is 1 mm away from the outer frame. The base of the number 2 is thin and bendy.
Type 1A Number 2 with the least hollow head and the largest ball whose axis is at an angle.
Type IB Ball of the 2 more hollow, base of this figure well untied
There is no other information in Yvert & Tellier. below is the compressed information from Ceres 2003, which did not appear in the 1984 edition. The images below are all with 0.25" x 0.25" cropped field The cap looks more like what Maury described for the other types (not the Type I). The top right corner looks most closely to the Ceres details for a IB. The hand looks to be 'closer" to what Ceres describes for both IA and IB The dress detail on the right side of the major fold looks most like the IB, on the left it looks like the IA. The 25c looks closer to Maury's IB, and not much like Ceres. The foot appears nice and flat! At best, it seems safe to say that the traits described by either source(s) may not necessarily be 'typical". The stamp viewed here was issued and used several years before the next Types emerged. Once again the quandary of who to follow and whether to try and find all the types and display them. This is thus far the most ambiguous stamp in the Semeuse/Sower series. Looking back the type Sage was a almost a walk in the park!
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Post by smauggie on Feb 22, 2023 23:47:12 GMT
I won't ever really get into sowers as you have but I did have a question. Were all the stamps used for the first semi-postal stamp all from the same printing?
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Post by stainlessb on Feb 23, 2023 0:29:59 GMT
I "think" this is using the same plate(s) from the 1906 - 1910 Yvert # 135 Type I and/or IIA (both had the broken lower rung of the last E in FRANCAISE... corrected on Type III) , reference I find indicates retouched by Lhomme ( but it is unclear whether Lhomme retouched the plate for 146 or if it was used as "it was" and then the modification for 147 was what that Lhomme did). Although looking at your stamps the back edge of he skirt is unbroken and it was almost non-existent in the earlier Type I and only somewhat 'strengthened in Types IIA and III This design replaced the "Sower on mound" which was not received favorably. I read somewhere ot was because they had simply made the figure more "squat" . Your stamp (Yvert #146)was the first stamp was the first surcharged stamp (by overprint) preceding Yvert #147 by one month. In 1917 the first two value/semi-postal issues were released (Orphans of the war). These were sold individually by the Post Office. France was the first country to issue a Red Cross stamp stamps with a surcharge. If anyone has additional (or other) information please share. A nice pair of stamps you have! Below is a used copy of 147 with detail showing the bottomof the E touching her bonnet
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Post by daniel on Feb 23, 2023 1:32:46 GMT
I won't ever really get into sowers as you have but I did have a question. Were all the stamps used for the first semi-postal stamp all from the same printing? Those control punches on the selvedge are interesting and are commonly found on some France and Colonies Proofs. Were these common on issued stamp sheets too?
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Post by captphil on Feb 23, 2023 2:47:42 GMT
I have read that those control punches were made by some sort of counting device, they were not intended to be a security feature. The French term is "le haricot", the bean. They are often found on proof sheets into the 1950s, on some of the exhibition sheets, and on the tail margins of regular sheet stamps.
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Post by stainlessb on Feb 23, 2023 22:49:51 GMT
While I await the "new" reference to arrive I thought I should make some progress, and decided the best approach was to go after the 'low hanging fruit"- not a lot of variants (color shades yes, plate Types no. Below is Yvert 140 and 141 the retouched Sower plates (or so-called 'fat" sower. The first design was thought to have made the figure look very thin and not well defined so Lhomme was contracted to "retouch" the original plates (no denomination. The 35 centimes is a bit of a challenge as there is an earlier (non re-touched_ issue Yvert #136, issued From 11/1906 to 11/1907 and replaced by 141, One 'aid" is that the 136 was not printed on GC paper, but the re-=touched issues (some of them) were. The 141 Type II is easy to spot as there is only one difference, the lower arc of the first "S" in POSTES is not 'flattened" as in the Type I (and it was th eretouched Type that was used on the later 35c green and 35 c- surharge 25s purple issue. I believe I have these sorted out correctly.
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Post by stainlessb on Feb 25, 2023 19:58:03 GMT
A perfect day for stamping! Stormy weather!!! Going through my 10 c Red Semeuse came´´separating by dates (1920 and before and later). The Yvert #135 was issued first in 1906 and was in print production until 1910 (Type III), There is a separate issue #138 (retouched) in production from 1907 - 192. The details are not of the greatest clarity - the earlier is described as the 'skinny" or "thin" Semeuse, with the latter being "fat".... I am hoping to find a stamp (or 2) with a date stamp preceding the #138 issue date, so I have something I can scan and study at high res. (so far no luck, lots of 1908 and 09... which could be either #, I did however come across this?!? Here's a close up... I will give it a bath as there is some paper remnant on the back and maybe get a better look at this
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Post by stainlessb on Feb 26, 2023 16:15:57 GMT
After a bath, the paper on the back was removed, and a very small paper remnant on the "sun orb" thanks to hot water and a drop of detegent, then for a luxurious soaking in Hydrogen Peroxide the stamp is a bit brighter. Whatever caused the 'sun orb' was prior to the stamp being used as the obliterationis on top. Based on other characteristics, this is Yvert# 138IAc, 138 because the back of the sowers body line is distinct, and POSTES is bit more robust than in the #135 (something I have not seen called out in the catalogues (but I need to look further)... more on this later Type IA red-orange (most likely, will need to get others throught he same bath routine to really compare. 1A based on back hand- hash lines uniform, and the "Q" in REPUBLIQUE having the dot below attached (even though obliteration goes through you can see in the deatl scan below. The 'sun orb" no clue, but it's worth saving!
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Post by stainlessb on Feb 26, 2023 23:50:51 GMT
Edit below- see later post The Yvert #135 was the first Semeuse cameé issued following criticisms that the Semeuse ligneé 's background caused the sower to not stand out and many of the background lines were difficult to see anyway. The first 'new" design was #134, the Semeuse on mound, which was immediately drew criticism, largely because many perceived that the sower's legs had been shortened to fit the mound under her. There was also a protrusion above the bag arm which has been described by some a a 'nipple' and it needed to be taken out. The next design removed the mound (and nipple) and released, but a year later in response to more criticism it was 'retouched' the year after re-release to make the figure more apparent. This resulted in two denominations (10c and 35c) having each two catalogue #'s and a few differences, some easier to spot than others. This design was issued in 3 denominations 10c, 20c and 35c. #135 was released in 1907, the retouched issue (#138 was issued in 1907, but both plates remained in use (#135 until the end of 1910, and #138 until 1922... so there are a lot of red 10c Semeuse cameé (and some refer to the retouched issued and referred by some as Cameus seeper). #135. the 'thin' or 'skinny' Semeuse has characteristics *traits) that differentiate it from the retouched issue (138). First is the 'thin' physique of the body caused by a weak outline of the back of ther foreleg up to the arm. The Type I is the most faint, with the IIA and III being somewhat better defined (but not by a whole lot). Cancellations can often make this difficult to see. The cat is another clue provide- Type I the main field has no marks, Type II there is a line, or in some cases a dash and a dot, and in other cases several small dots in the main are of the hat. The Type III has nothing stated about the cap itself, but the lower rung of the last "E" in REPUBLIQUE touches her head (a bid squiggled) whereas Type I and II there is a gap (which carried forward to the retouched issues). Below is a mint Type III. The dress line on the right side is not well defined, The last E in REPUBLIC touches her head. The hat (in this case has a coiuple of dots in the main field). What I have not found noted (yet) in any of the references is that the "Q" in REPUBLIQUE, lacks the 'tail (in fact it looks more like an "O") Some poorly inked stamps will have a spot in or about where the small dot/extension under the Q (and also under the "C" in FRANCAISE.Additionally POSTES is much less robust than in the retouched issues, but I have found mention of either of these traits which seem pretrty easy to spot Below are several more images of the IQU from other #135. You will notice a trace on several scans, but they do not seem 'planned" (3/1/2023 I have since found in other denominations)Below are images of POSTES, the first is taken from a #138 Type IA and after are scans from the earlier #135 (sdame stamps the IQU came from If anyone has a reference mentioning these, please let me know. I am hoping that specialized books by Stoch and Francon will mention this.
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Post by stainlessb on Feb 27, 2023 15:46:46 GMT
Another oddity- this time more of a 'blood moon'! Yvert #138 IA Here is a close up of the moon, which also shows the well formed 'tail" of the Q as mentioned previously *(A mes amis francophones, quel est le nom correct pour cela ?) as well as the clear field in the cap, and the lower rung of the "E" broken and not touching her head as always, a bath will be upcoming
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Post by stainlessb on Feb 27, 2023 21:02:39 GMT
Unsure why these occur, but they are not coomon #138 IAa Type IA (the most common) anneau-lune. Too bad there is a small tear int he left side... I have made the first pass through these (~400 stamps) pulling out the #135. but I htink I'll take a day's break before going through the 138's and looking for Type IC and II. I have pulled out some, but I am sure I've missed some (and maybe som e more of these (anneau-lune)
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renden
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Post by renden on Feb 27, 2023 21:07:53 GMT
Am proud of you, `persistance`, Stan stainlessb Love to see these "anneau de lune"....I have always looked for them in my lot of FRANCE René
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Post by stainlessb on Feb 27, 2023 21:39:58 GMT
maybe persistence with a dash of insanity(!?) I didn't realize I had quite so many of these until I got them into a single pile and started through them. Another coulple of days, maybe get pages made, and I can move to #139 20c lilac-brown Semeuse...they shouldn't take as long as I do not have all that many and there the Type III and IV are a slightly taller because of the rotary printing method... I am hoping I can 'see" the difference rather than have to measure all... (22 mm versus 22.5 mm0 according tot he examples shown in Maury Ceres & Dallay the rotary stamps are physically taller (unlike some of the earlier stamps with this trait that were all physically the same size)
I hope this slight difference in physical siize is easy to spot
but more on that later... just now my eyes need a break form any and all Semeuse stamps!
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Post by stainlessb on Feb 28, 2023 20:23:09 GMT
The next release in the Semeuse series is the Yvert # 137, 1907 5 c Dark Green (although there are listed green variants). This was the first of the "re-touched" issues to address the issues of Semeuse appear 'skinny/thin". The re-touching was by Jean-Baptiste Lhomme. I am nmot sure if Mouchon had fallen "out of grace" or if there was another reason he did not do the re-touching (Her engraved the original plates). The back of the dress would now have a definite boundary/line. The legends (REPUBLIQUE FRANCAISE and POSTES) were b oth retouched are are more 'robust/bold" from the appearance on the earlier stamps. There are only two Types; I and IIA, the difference being in the 'tail" of the Q, in Type I, the 'tail" is a dot below the oval, and in Typ[e IIA it is a shorty connected 'bar' (think island and peninsula). Below are several oddities that have thus far turned up; Firstt a Type I, that apparently was printed with poorly mixed inks (yellow + blue = green), because the white fields are not tinted I think it safe to conclude the ink was not completely mixed! Next a Type IIA with several anneau-lune- The upper two below the UBL ) are open at one and both ends, the lower one is complete (although very thin on the ends. )
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Post by gstamps on Mar 1, 2023 10:08:52 GMT
Hi stainlessb Reading your posts, I started trying to identify my "Semeuse" type stamps as well. I only have Yvert-Tellier 2018 and I will refer to the numbers in this catalog. I think it is YT#159 (POSTES with bold letters) and type IB (dot under the letter Q in "Republique"). I hope you can confirm my identification so far. I hope you will continue to help me identify "striped gum paper" which corresponds to the YT#159i variety. I think I saw in one of your posts that this type of gum also appears on "x" type paper. Hi uppercanadianI found your post with type "x" paper. The striations are not regular even in your image. Are you sure that there are no cracks in the gum due to storage conditions?
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Post by stainlessb on Mar 1, 2023 16:28:58 GMT
gstamps Referencing Maury Ceres & Dallay it does look to be a Type IB based on the "Q", but the 1st "S" in POSTES looks to be retouched which would make it a Type III, which has no notes regarding the tail of the Q. Ceres makes note of the Q in the IA, IB, as well as a Type II(??) There is images of the c after the denomination - your stamp looks closer to the IB than the III as with most of the Semeuse issues there is no consensus on Types and their traits, and the stamps themself are not consistent- Below is Yvert #137, vertical pair. Looking at the Q which is the only trait diffenence noted in MC&D (Type I if the tail is a point/dot) and Type IIA if it is connected/bar. Upper stamp is a clear separate 'dot", the lower stamp, the Q in general is well defined, if the bottom of the Q was more complete, the tail looks as though it would be attached. Also, more of an oddity, the lower rung of the last "E" in REPUBLIQUE in the upper stam is broken and very slanted. In th elower stamp there is no lower rung and the "E" now looks like an "F". If the stamps were separated, they might well be identified differently. The IIA appeared a little over 3 years after the Type I was issued. I don't know if your comment about the paper X was directed to me or not, but the image I posted, yes not as uniform and it could be an artifact of storage, though I hope to at some point phsically see multiple examples to see if the application of gum is always uniform. Maury describes the X paper as #159 IB c and is not listed for any of the other types. Below is the back off a gutter pair. I have intentionally skewed the color settings to better show the pattern on the paper. I noticed it under normal light simply looking at it with no magnification. Is the papttern a 'weave" in the paper, or an impression caused by the gum? hope this hasn't muddied the water! Cheers Stan
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Post by stainlessb on Mar 1, 2023 16:49:19 GMT
My comments previously regarding #135 and the tail of the Q missing might be a defining trait... I have found it missing on a number of stamps of other denomination and think it simply an anomaly
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Post by gstamps on Mar 1, 2023 20:02:28 GMT
Many thanks stainlessb, Stan, for the identification. In the YT catalog, the "x paper" variety is not mentioned, but only the "i" variety - striped gum paper. Making the connection with what you say is mentioned in Maury (159 c -IB paper "x") it seems that my stamp is on paper "x". Cheers George
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Post by stainlessb on Mar 1, 2023 20:25:09 GMT
It looks like the few images of X paper (not including the image I took). Below is a scan of just the 159 III from MC&D.Almost 3/4 of the page is devoted to #159 - the other Types IA, IB, IC, III and IV have their own set of criteria. MC&D make no mention of papier gomme stireé
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renden
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Post by renden on Mar 1, 2023 20:38:49 GMT
Now, who is the "expert" of this terminology, in FRANCE I wondered when I used Maury to do my classic stamps and reading your posts of different catalogs - with the help of color charts etc stainlessbRené
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Post by gstamps on Mar 1, 2023 21:03:04 GMT
stainlessbIf you look at the beginning of the YT catalog "x" paper = bright white paper with diagonally striped gum.
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Post by stainlessb on Mar 1, 2023 22:44:08 GMT
Completed page for Yvert 135 and 136. I had posted the initial draft of this in the DIY pages thread. It has been editted somewhat from what was shown there. On to the next!
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Post by stainlessb on Mar 3, 2023 19:30:25 GMT
Yvert 138 IA- All four stamps have been given a bathe followed by a peroxide soak. Starting on the left- color changeling? mis-inked? There are a few traces of orange/red (and it has a definite thin... but the color makes it interesting enough to keep) oblong anneau lune straight down from back hand. There is a red-orange stamp listed (136 IA c, but the postmark of 1915/6 wouldmake this a late usage underinked or just worn? nice red color and the lower part of the "T" in POSTES is missing Starting to jump into the Semeuse Cameé books I just received *reprints of Storch and Francon work. I am not strong enough with my knowledge of the French language to move very quickly through the text. I seem to need to get a translation on every 3rd or 4th word (I imagine this will improve as I get further into the 2 volumes)
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Post by renden on Mar 3, 2023 19:33:48 GMT
Stan stainlessb - if I can help with translation, just scan of snipe what you need and I will try !! René
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Post by stainlessb on Mar 3, 2023 19:47:21 GMT
renden merci beaucoup! another 138 IA n GC paper- Someone before me wrote what appears to be GC on the back, The scan lightened up the paper as it has a more 'brownish' color
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Post by gstamps on Mar 4, 2023 17:10:00 GMT
Hi, I have a stamp YT#138 type IC: - the middle bar of B is oblique. - the third hatch line is broken. I think it is normal paper (it also exists on "x" and GC paper). stainlessb, I noticed in the YT catalog that the stamps on paper "x" have no value written on the used stamps. It seems that the bright white color is not enough for identification. The only clue is the diagonally striped gum (obviously only the mint stamps)
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Post by stainlessb on Mar 4, 2023 18:09:14 GMT
MC&D have a value for X paper many times that of the base number stamp (no a,b, c etc., ) It only gives values for MNH and MH so you may be correct, it may not be possible to identify sans gum.
MC&D use slightly different criteria (making no mention of the 'B") but applying their criteria, your has the bar type tail on the Q and the absent (full) hatch on the hand, which would make it a 138 IC. MC&D also lists IA and IC se tenet (next to each other in apair, so the Types are not completely different plates just variations within a plate. Although each Type has a date where it (apparently) begain appearing.... which I assume must have been from re-toutching the plates as they wore.I am just begining to get into the generalities listed in Storch and Francon's book(s). I will post anything I find that seems of significance
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Post by gstamps on Mar 4, 2023 19:27:54 GMT
Interesting information that there is a pair of IA and IC. The YT catalog mentions vertical pairs from booklets, but not the fact that they can be of different types. There are many cases with German stamps when there are several types on the same printing plate (Germany French Occup.) They appear on an entire column of the printing plate and the columns on which they appear are specified. Is there also for these types of stamps 138 the identification of the positions in the plate?
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Post by stainlessb on Mar 4, 2023 21:41:34 GMT
The mixed Types is lists as being on plain, GC and X paper. I have not seen any plate position descriptions, but I would not be surprised to someday find! It exists on others also (Marianne du Gandon) but I have no seen a sheet location given
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Post by gstamps on Mar 5, 2023 18:20:39 GMT
Hi stainlessb I didn't have the patience and time to try to identify them (there are too many types and subtypes) They are YT#140. In the YT catalog there are three shades of blue: blue, dark blue and blackish blue. If the stamp on the right is dark blue (dunkel blau), it is obvious that the first stamp also has something green in the blue base color. Yvert-Tellier is very simplistic (and even ambiguous) in describing colors and it is not the first time I have encountered situations like this. In the other specialized works that you have, this shade is specified? (I think it is greenish blue or even Prussian blue)
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