FDI
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Member of RPSC & BNAPS
Posts: 386
What I collect: Modern Canada (misperf, varieties, tagging errors), Canadian Cinderellas, EXUP & CAPEX & Dead Countries
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Post by FDI on May 7, 2020 16:14:19 GMT
Tagging and Fluorescence on modern Canadian stamps is an area of collecting that merits to be discovered. Many members like myself have questions that other experience collectors in this field maybe able to answer for us. It is fascinating when you go beyond the stamp itself and start looking at the "making" of these art pieces!
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FDI
Member
Member of RPSC & BNAPS
Posts: 386
What I collect: Modern Canada (misperf, varieties, tagging errors), Canadian Cinderellas, EXUP & CAPEX & Dead Countries
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Post by FDI on May 7, 2020 16:34:31 GMT
My first question in this thread is related to Unitrade #1122 which is a GT4 standard tag. The first thing that got my attention on this stamp was the design shift to the bottom. Nothing exceptionnel with this other than a nice example of a shift. It got interesting when I put the UV light to it. It clearly shows that the bottom tag bar is missing. Now my question is as follows: Is this a true Tagging error or is this caused by the design shift? If we look at the stamps under UV, we can see a darker portion between the TAG bars which is lower than the actual design frame itself. My understanding of this stamp is that we would have both; 1) a Tag Error, and 2) a design shift. Am I correct in thinking so?
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khj
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Posts: 1,524
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Post by khj on May 7, 2020 16:56:38 GMT
Not sure if same terminology is used by others. Perforation is done last. So, technically, I normally refer to this as a perforation shift. When I use the term design shift, it usually refers to color/plate misregistration.
For stamps that are not on pre-phosphored paper, there is minimal effort to register the tagging to the design. Because it is normally not visible to the unaided eye -- the only thing needed is for the mail sorting machinery to see any sort of tagging on the stamp.
I never checked on Canadian stamps because I don't have mint panes. But on tagged US panes of the 1970s-1980s, you can occasionally find tagging registration marks (lines, blocks) on the selvedge along with the other color registration marks. Don't know if these appear on Canadian mint panes. This is in contrast to the overall tagging of the 1960s, which basically attempted blanket cover all the stamps. On these overall tagged stamps, because minimal effort was made to register, you can find examples where the tagging mat edge is on the final column/row of stamps instead of on the selvedge.
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khj
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Post by khj on May 7, 2020 18:26:20 GMT
I'm at the office right now, but do have 2 mint #1122 here. Below is the tagging (disregard the difference in color/intensity of tagging, I was holding UV light at angle with one hand and cellphone in other hand): The stamps are from different sources. Both stamps show the tagging frame set to the bottom, but haven't seen enough of these to know if that is "normal". Normally on tagging/perforation shifts, I only consider it an EFO if the one of the main elements completely shows onto the other side. For example, if could see a continuous untagged bar on any side (corresponding to the inside of the tagging frame appearing on another stamp), I would consider that an abnormal enough shift to toss into my pile of tagging EFOs. Anything else is just typical slight tagging misregistration to me. This interpretation, of course, depends on what the tagging position was supposed to be, and I don't know enough about this stamp. It's kind of like collecting based on centering. Perfectly centered, great. F or AVG, cuts down on value. Perforations so design element appears on opposite side, then starts becoming a premium item again. JMO
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khj
Member
Posts: 1,524
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Post by khj on May 7, 2020 18:38:28 GMT
I just took a quick look at the S/S and other stamps in the set. The tagging is, in fact, suppose to "frame" the design. I'll post a pic of the S/S later.
So both your 34¢ stamp and both of mine appear to have the tagging shifted downward relative to the printing. Your stamp also has the perforation shifted upward relative to the printing.
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khj
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Post by khj on May 7, 2020 18:44:23 GMT
Here is a pic of the S/S. The 36¢ stamp is the same basic design as the 34¢ stamp. Both sets of S/S and singles that I have here are similarly centered -- the only exception was both the 34¢ stamps.
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angore
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What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on May 7, 2020 20:25:19 GMT
I enjoy tagging but do not know much about Canadian stamps.
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brightonpete
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Post by brightonpete on May 7, 2020 23:31:25 GMT
I've never checked the tagging on my set. It is shifted down a bit as well, much like yours, khj. That other one you show, FDI, is a bit of a freak. You could email Robin Harris of the Unitrade catalogue to see what he thinks of it.
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gmot
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Posts: 205
What I collect: Canada & French Morocco
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Post by gmot on May 8, 2020 0:21:17 GMT
Unitrade assigns premiums for significant tagging errors - such as tagging missing altogether or extra tagging bars. Including a variety of the 36c value apparently, that comes with additional vertical bars. Some of these value premiums can be quite significant indeed. Mild tagging shifts don't seem to bring any kind of premium.
Out of interest, I checked all my copies of the 34c and the S/S, and the tagging is off-centre exactly as the pictures in this thread. All of the 34c (Sc #1122) had the tagging shifted heavily to the top, on a couple with almost no tagging bar showing on the bottom. So it looks like this tagging shift is perhaps the norm for this issue.
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khj
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Post by khj on May 8, 2020 0:58:48 GMT
What's interesting is that in the few copies of the other denominations that I have, the tagging does a fairly good job of framing the design, as in the S/S. I didn't bother taking/posting pics -- but the tagging looks very similar to the stamps in the S/S.
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gmot
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Posts: 205
What I collect: Canada & French Morocco
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Post by gmot on May 8, 2020 2:33:25 GMT
I checked my copies of other denominations based on your comment khj and most of them are as you mentioned. Except for one 36c, where I can only see tagging on the 2 vertical sides...curious!
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stanley64
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Posts: 1,978
What I collect: Canada, USA, Netherlands, Portugal & Colonies, Antarctic Territories and anything that catches my eye...
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Post by stanley64 on May 8, 2020 7:52:14 GMT
Again welcome to TSF François ( FDI ) and glad to see you jumping in with both feet including creating a new thread - good stuff!
I think you are spot on in saying that a study of tagging and fluorescence on modern Canadian stamps from it early beginnings in Winnipeg to the present would be an interesting area to collect. If you have not already begun to go down that path, have fun as there should be plenty of material available, much of which is well documented. The CAPEX issues would also make for an interesting collection or TSF newsletter article. As for the 34 cent Capex issue and its Ottawa Tagging, I think khj has it correct with his definitions and this is a perforation shift which has caused the missing tagging at the bottom to be omitted as a result of the stamp's perforations being shifted upwards by a couple of millimeters as in this example from my own collection,
"...To encourage the collecting and dissemination of information on this very popular field of Canadian philately, an up-to-date listing of all reported tagging errors in Canada is available for your searching.
Look forward to more of your postings & the ensuing dialogue...
Happy collecting!
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FDI
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Member of RPSC & BNAPS
Posts: 386
What I collect: Modern Canada (misperf, varieties, tagging errors), Canadian Cinderellas, EXUP & CAPEX & Dead Countries
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Post by FDI on May 9, 2020 19:18:23 GMT
Thank you all for the generous comments and web links to better understand these varieties. I will definitely continue my research on this thematic. gmot, while going through my accumulations to find other tag variations, I did find a Double Tag of the 36c. It is Unitrade #1123i. This is the difference between a 75c stamp and a $20 stamp! I guess there is a good side to confinement! FDI
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brightonpete
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Post by brightonpete on May 9, 2020 19:34:27 GMT
First time I've seen the double tagging. Thanks, FDI! I'll have to check mine to see what I have too! Maybe...
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gmot
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Posts: 205
What I collect: Canada & French Morocco
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Post by gmot on May 9, 2020 23:03:06 GMT
Nice find FDI! I do enjoy looking at my Canadian for tagging oddities sometimes. Although only for the general tagging - I find the Winnipeg tagging far too finicky to detect personally.
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brightonpete
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Post by brightonpete on May 9, 2020 23:25:04 GMT
Nice find FDI! I do enjoy looking at my Canadian for tagging oddities sometimes. Although only for the general tagging - I find the Winnipeg tagging far too finicky to detect personally. But I loved the Winnipeg tagging & wished CP stuck with it instead. The afterglow is what got to me
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FDI
Member
Member of RPSC & BNAPS
Posts: 386
What I collect: Modern Canada (misperf, varieties, tagging errors), Canadian Cinderellas, EXUP & CAPEX & Dead Countries
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Post by FDI on Jul 19, 2020 18:47:51 GMT
Canada #1123i 36c from the CAPEX '87 issue. Here is an other find of a Tagging variety that I could not find anywhere else. Contrary to #1123i where you have the GT4 all around plus two vertical bars on the left and right side, this one has only one bar and stops at the bottom of the design instead of going right through like the the varieties. Could not find in the On-Line Tagging catalogue nor on Ebay or other mimilar sites. Perhaps some of you have seen this before? FDI
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renden
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What I collect: Canada-USA-France-Lithuania-Austria--Germany-Mauritius-French Colonies in Africa
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Post by renden on Jul 19, 2020 19:36:32 GMT
Canada #1123i 36c from the CAPEX '87 issue. Here is an other find of a Tagging variety that I could not find anywhere else. Contrary to #1123i where you have the GT4 all around plus two vertical bars on the left and right side, this one has only one bar and stops at the bottom of the design instead of going right through like the the varieties. What cat do you use in Montreal FDI ? Unitrade has a note under 1123i saying : A portion of the printing produced with tagging on all sides (GT4) plus additional vertical tagging tag bars (GT2)......
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FDI
Member
Member of RPSC & BNAPS
Posts: 386
What I collect: Modern Canada (misperf, varieties, tagging errors), Canadian Cinderellas, EXUP & CAPEX & Dead Countries
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Post by FDI on Jul 19, 2020 19:59:18 GMT
renden I use Unitrade and I had noticed the note you are mentioning. I have attached a copy of 1123i that I have and the other one that has only one Bar. On the upper stamp we see the GT4 and the GT2 tagging and when we look at the lower stamp, we have GT4 but only one vertical bar that does not go down to the bottom of the stamps. That is were i'm puzzled a bit as this can't be 1123i as it only has on bar??? FDI
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tomiseksj
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Woodbridge, Virginia, USA
Posts: 6,385
What I collect: Worldwide stamps/covers, Cinderellas, Ohio Prepaid Sales Tax Receipts, U.S. WWII Ration ephemera
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Post by tomiseksj on Jul 19, 2020 20:45:14 GMT
Is it possible that the positioning of the tagging bar(s) on the lower stamp wasn't properly registered?
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stanley64
Member
Posts: 1,978
What I collect: Canada, USA, Netherlands, Portugal & Colonies, Antarctic Territories and anything that catches my eye...
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Post by stanley64 on Jul 20, 2020 6:19:28 GMT
Have a look at this FDI and see if there is not a match, ScNo: 1123 TagNo: T3 Tag type: G4 + G4aC 36c multicoloured Nelson-Miramichi Post Office Issued: 1987.06.12
Description: Double tag with additional single tag bar 5mm from left running over "87".
The fact that the tagging does not extend the full height of the stamp could be as Steve ( tomiseksj ) suggests, simple mis-registration...
Happy collecting!
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FDI
Member
Member of RPSC & BNAPS
Posts: 386
What I collect: Modern Canada (misperf, varieties, tagging errors), Canadian Cinderellas, EXUP & CAPEX & Dead Countries
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Post by FDI on Mar 9, 2021 13:00:03 GMT
1996 Canadian Authors #1626a As I keep adding tag variations and errors to my collection, I recently came accross an interesting find. I purchased this strip of 5 where the tagging agent did not register properly. I would be curious to see the whole sheet but nevertheless you can see the dramatic difference between the 4 strips. If you also look carefully, you will notice a light variation of the tagging agent between the other 3 strips. I'm no expert on tagging agent application, but I would have thought that Canada Post could have noticed this error before it went out to the market? In any case, this is a great addition to my collection. FDI
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khj
Member
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Post by khj on Mar 9, 2021 18:58:06 GMT
I went through a lot of full panes of US stamps when I used to do a lot of mailings. It was not unusual to see this on panes of US stamps from the 1960s-1980's. For US, it was an artifact of the tagging mat. Sometimes, I noticed the taggant would not adhere to certain inks, and you could see a non-luminescent outline around a certain color of a design element on a few stamps.
Don't know about Canada, but in the US, postal service basically makes minimal attempt to confirm tagging was correctly done during the production process. In the US, the most I've seen is tagging registration marks (short line segments, rectangles) which were actually made by the tagging mat. But they don't appear on most selvedge. And as far as I know, they make no attempt whatsoever to confirm tagging was actually applied. In the 1990s, they experimented with pre-phosphored paper and embedded taggant to skip the tagging step during printing.
The automated machinery is pretty forgiving -- all it needs to detect is some photoluminescence and it will process the mail piece. This is why you will see "block tagging", "bar tagging", "dot tagging", "mottled tagging"... Not like when we had to fill out those Scantron sheets and they would insist we use a #2 pencil to fill in every nook and cranny of that oval. If the tagging is insufficient or missing, it just gets kicked out into the manual processing bin. Nowadays, it's not like the mail will arrive any slower when that happens!
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FDI
Member
Member of RPSC & BNAPS
Posts: 386
What I collect: Modern Canada (misperf, varieties, tagging errors), Canadian Cinderellas, EXUP & CAPEX & Dead Countries
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Post by FDI on Apr 18, 2021 17:38:42 GMT
Canada Picture Postage #2586a I was given a booklet of the reference stamps by my son who use to work at MDA Canada. The stamps are showing the RADARSAT which was the first commercial used satellite ever. In such a very interesting booklet but what got my attention is the pinkish tagging agent. I had never seen this color on Canadian stamps. Is this unique to the "Picture Postage" stamps? Have any one seen this on other stamps? FDI
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FDI
Member
Member of RPSC & BNAPS
Posts: 386
What I collect: Modern Canada (misperf, varieties, tagging errors), Canadian Cinderellas, EXUP & CAPEX & Dead Countries
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Post by FDI on Apr 19, 2021 12:43:12 GMT
Canada #715 T4b - House of Parliament with tagging error Definitely one of my preferred recent purchase. Rare enough to see a block like this with a one bar tagging error, but to have 715iii (missing spire) and 715v (light in window) with it, is even better!
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brightonpete
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Post by brightonpete on Apr 19, 2021 12:53:32 GMT
Great block, FDI! I have singles with the tagging bar just off the perfs. That block with errors is spectacular!
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FDI
Member
Member of RPSC & BNAPS
Posts: 386
What I collect: Modern Canada (misperf, varieties, tagging errors), Canadian Cinderellas, EXUP & CAPEX & Dead Countries
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Post by FDI on Apr 26, 2021 21:21:50 GMT
Two new items this week. Canada #716 T9, 14c Red And Black Queen Elizabeth II, 1977-1982 Floral & Environment Issue. On this block of 6 we can see that the right tag bar is only 1 mm wide versus the normal 4 mm bar and also, that it ends short of the bottom of the stamp. This block and the single below are the actual items used as the reference in the Online Tagging Database found on the Adminware web site. My second item, just as interesting, is a copy of #716c T3. This one, the tagging was omitted where we should normally have a GT2 tagging. Also, the red color is partially missing. These are from transitional sheets with weak red printing. There are 65 stamps in total in this transitional mode. As per Adminware, this is position 22 on a pane of 100. Also refer to the note in Unitrade catalogue.
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WERT
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Post by WERT on Apr 27, 2021 20:43:47 GMT
Here is a G2aL on a Scott 721 Rober
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WERT
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Post by WERT on Apr 27, 2021 20:45:34 GMT
Here is a 939 tagging error. Robert
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WERT
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Post by WERT on Apr 27, 2021 20:53:12 GMT
Here is one more Scott 1698 tagging error...I sent it to the editor of the tagging data base, and he said it is a new find..Great, eh..?? Robert
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