Beryllium Guy
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Posts: 5,654 
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jun 16, 2020 20:03:37 GMT
Now that I think about it, this seems like a topic that should have come up on the Forum by now. When I did a search, however, it did not show much, so here we go again. This new thread has been inspired by my research into a couple of auction lots of Danzig overprint stamps, shown in a thread I started yesterday. But I see this as a new, broader topic than just Danzig overprints, and I am hoping that others who have experience with expertizing marks will be able to offer some comments. Many thanks to khj for your comments at the end of the Danzig overprints thread. Yes, I had already found the filatelia.fi website early in my search about expertizers. As soon as I got the images showing the marks, I searched by name for the expertizer, and I found the site. So, I will end this first post here, in case others want to comment while I prepare the next post, which will show the images of the expertizing marks from the auction lot stamps compared to what is shown on the filatelia.fi website. Thanks for your patience..... more to come!  |
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Post by classicalstamps on Jun 16, 2020 20:30:16 GMT
I recommend to never trust experticing marks. Easy to forge, and many have been so over the years.
Only trust somewhat recent certificates from an acknowledged expert (or organisation).
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,654
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jun 16, 2020 20:48:05 GMT
Thanks for your patience, everyone. And thanks for your comments, Morten ( classicalstamps )! Based on my findings, I am tending to think that you are right. With new photos from the Oxford dealer on the Danzig overprints, I saw that the name of the expertizer is Kniep, and his mark is KNIEP BPP. So, I did a web search for the name and stamp expertizer for Danzig, and the filatelia site came up, just where khj posted in the link in the other thread. Luckily, filatelia had an image of a genuine mark from Kniep on their site, which is the first (top) image shown below.  Beneath that, I found some Danzig stamps in an eBay lot and took a screen shot, then I cropped images of the marks from two of the stamps from the local auction. You can have a look for yourself, and let me know what you think, but I will tell you that in my opinion, the mark from eBay looks similar to the filatelia reference image, but the ones from the Oxford lot do not. I think that these are forged expertizer marks. How do they look to you? Opinions welcome! Also, if any other members have experiences with expertizer marks that they would like to share, please don't hesitate to post something! I didn't know much about expertizer marks before now, but I have gotten a crash course today. |
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khj
Member 
Posts: 1,458
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Post by khj on Jun 16, 2020 21:04:50 GMT
The picture of the marks on the Oxford lots speaks for itself. I can only fathom one reason to get this lot. JMHO
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,654
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Apr 9, 2021 22:14:35 GMT
Ok, I have looked through my album this morning, for about 3 hours. I didn't realize until today that some people actually have small letter stamps, to mark the back of their stamps with. I thought only the people who expertised stamps, used those little letter stamps. So, with that discovery, I now have figured out that the album has about 50% or a little more, of the stamps have actually been expertised. There are at least 7 different persons expertising stamps, that I have seen so far. The best thing about these stamps in this album being expertised, is that I didn't even know they were done, until I received the album. I paid a little over $200 for this album from a European stamp auction a few years back now. Whether they are expertised or not, doesn't really matter to me, but from the looks of it, they do have the correct colors. Unfortunately, my scanner doesn't scan in true color, so everything almost looks the same in my scanned pictures. I have tried to take some pictures with my phone, to try to show the real colors of the stamps. In person, you can see the differences in the colors of the stamps, but I can't see hardly any difference in the scans unfortunately. I have shown the original pages with a scan and a photo from my phone. I have also shown the stamps scanned out of the pages and the backs of the stamps that show the expertising marks. The album goes from Germany #1-104. So, here are some pictures: #88-91
#94-97 
#102-104 
Moved this post from the thread on Germania Definitives to this one to further discuss the Expertizing Marks. |
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,654
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Apr 9, 2021 22:22:25 GMT
Mike ( mikeclevenger), many thanks for posting the images of the fronts and backs of your German stamps with expertizing marks. I have been doing a little research this week, with a few examples from my collection, as well as info gathered from this website, which shows both genuine and forged marks: www.filatelia.fi/experts/index.htmlI need to spend some time organizing the images to present them for better viewing, and I will do that soon. Thanks for your patience. |
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REL1948
Member
Posts: 583
What I collect: 1840-Pre-Decimal, GB and Colonies, 1840 1 penny reds, Postal Histories
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Post by REL1948 on Apr 9, 2021 23:03:09 GMT
About 30 years ago I bought a German collection that was complete MNH from 1924 to 1945. It was a beautiful set of stamps especially the Zeppelins. Ah yes, the zeppelins, each beautifully centered stamp was expertised with a mark from the firm "Koch" making me feel really good about the purchase. Years later, I sold off the collection. Everything went well except the zeppelins. The Buyer returned them to me after having them examined by PSE. They had all been re-gummed and had fake expertise marks applied.
It was an expensive lesson but it taught me that an expertise mark is only a starting point. Unless confirmed by another reliable source, they hold no initial credibility for me.
Rob
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,654
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Apr 9, 2021 23:28:21 GMT
Comparison of Expertizing Marks
INFLA Berlin on German StampsThanks again to Mike ( mikeclevenger) for the posts showing expertizing marks on your Germania stamps. I have found a few in my own holdings, although not many compared to what you seem to have. Here is a composite image with examples of the same type of mark from INFLA Berlin, one from each of our collections and two from the filatelia.fi website. Sorry to say, but it seems pretty clear that our examples more closely match those of the forgery, Mike. And thanks for your post, Rob ( REL1948). Your point is well taken. Just like stamps, expertizing marks can be forged, too, and arguably even more easily. After checking the filatelia.fi website, I think that all of the expertizing marks I have found in my collection so far have turned out to be forged. Now it's making me wonder about the stamps, too. I will post more on those tomorrow! 
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mikeclevenger
Member
Posts: 887
What I collect: Ohio Tax Stamps, Ohio & Georgia Revenues, US Revenues, US FDC's, & Germany Classics
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Post by mikeclevenger on Apr 19, 2021 9:14:25 GMT
Thanks Chris. It's a good thing I didn't know they had marks on the back when I bought the album. I just bought them for the stamps in the album.
Have a great day.
Mike.
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,264
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Apr 19, 2021 11:45:44 GMT
Never trust an expertising mark on a stamp! Modern technology shows they can sometimes be quite wrong, As we see they can be faked. The fashion for these seems to by very largely European based, and German in particular. Confusing also when the h/s may simply be an owner’s mark rather than an indication of genuineness They are hardly ever found on British , Empire or Commonwealth stamps and I am not aware of their use in US generally . I seem to have read somewhere that there was a convention about the placement of the mark and a handstamp inverted or in an unusual position could indicate doubt or even mean the stamp was forged. I may be quite wrong of course , has anyone else knowledge of such a convention? A certificate + photo from a reputable expert is more to be trusted than old handstamps on the reverse which I consider deface the stamp . Ps can one “deface” on the reverse .....  |
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mikeclevenger
Member
Posts: 887
What I collect: Ohio Tax Stamps, Ohio & Georgia Revenues, US Revenues, US FDC's, & Germany Classics
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Post by mikeclevenger on Apr 20, 2021 9:04:19 GMT
Never trust an expertising mark on a stamp! Modern technology shows they can sometimes be quite wrong, As we see they can be faked. The fashion for these seems to by very largely European based, and German in particular. Confusing also when the h/s may simply be an owner’s mark rather than an indication of genuineness They are hardly ever found on British , Empire or Commonwealth stamps and I am not aware of their use in US generally . I seem to have read somewhere that there was a convention about the placement of the mark and a handstamp inverted or in an unusual position could indicate doubt or even mean the stamp was forged. I may be quite wrong of course , has anyone else knowledge of such a convention? A certificate + photo from a reputable expert is more to be trusted than old handstamps on the reverse which I consider deface the stamp . Ps can one “deface” on the reverse ..... Trusting an expertising mark is a chance at best. Unless, it comes with the photo certificate, which I own one of. The US doesn't use expertising marks at all on stamps, most here would consider this defacing it, as you say. I actually write on the back of most of my Ohio State Revenue stamps, just because I don't want to look them up constantly, to figure out which one they are. So it doesn't bother me to have writing on the back of a stamp.
Here is the placement of expertising marks from www.bpp.de, which is the group that does expertising. As you can see, inverted marks are used on the overprinted stamps only.
Hope this helps.
Have a great day.
Mike.
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,264
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Apr 20, 2021 9:13:49 GMT
Sadly even a certificate can get it wrong. Recently I bought a Samoa Express stamp from a reputable Auction house with a Royal Philatelic Society of London cert. ( dated 1993) .
The stamp is genuine , I have no quarrel with that, but it is wrongly identified as to printing state and hence catalogue number .
The Royal experts have made a mistake, so the Certificate is invalid .
In their defence one can only state that the definitive book for plating these issues by Robert Odenweller is a more recent publication not available at the time of the cert.
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,654
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Apr 20, 2021 9:54:55 GMT
Thanks for these continuing posts, Mike ( mikeclevenger) and Alex ( vikingeck).... some great points you have both made. So, Alex, in the case of an invalid certificate, as you have found, how do you get that fixed? I don't know if either of you read my article in the last TSF Newsletter about developing philatelic expertise in the digital age, but in there, I give an example of an APS certificate that I found while doing my COGH triangle research indicates that a particular stamp is genuine, when the image is clearly a forgery. Although it is not my stamp, the reason I came across it is because the stamp in question is being offered for sale in the APS Stamp Store, and I couldn't believe it when I saw that this forgery had been certified as genuine. Any further comments about how these sorts of things get resolved? |
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brightonpete
Departed
Rest in Peace
On a hike at Goodrich-Loomis
Posts: 5,110
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Post by brightonpete on Apr 20, 2021 9:57:32 GMT
Forgery at the APS Stamp Store? Oh no, I hope ALL my purchases from them aren't all forgeries as well!
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,654
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Apr 20, 2021 10:22:16 GMT
No worries, Peter ( brightonpete )! I guess you are joking, but I suppose I should clarify that I consider my discovery about this incorrect APS certificate to be a real rarity. I reviewed more than a hundred certificates during my research, and the one I mention in the Newsletter article is the only one I found that seemed off-base. The other really nice thing about the APS Stamp Store is that if you inspect your purchase promptly, you can easily return anything that was incorrectly described or misidentified. The only catch is that you need to do it within 30 days, as I discovered on one occasion, to my cost. In that case, the seller had incorrectly identified the watermark on one of my purchases, but I failed to check it promptly. By the time I noticed it, it was long after the 30 days. As a result, I ended up paying $20 for a stamp with a CV of $1.00, but it was my fault for not checking it sooner. I was really angry with myself for being so careless on that, but it has been a good lesson. |
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,264
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Apr 20, 2021 10:27:29 GMT
So, Alex, in the case of an invalid certificate, as you have found, how do you get that fixed? Any further comments about how these sorts of things get resolved? The only way to fix it would seem to be to go to the expense of a new cert . The application form asks the proposer to describe the item, then asks for what Information is desired ? ie you needn't ask the expert to identify it, just to confirm it as genuine Here is the cert in Question . (It was 1993 not 1986 as I said above so I have edited that post) The stamp is described as "second State SG 8" when it is actually State III SG13 both stamps are catalogued in the £400 -£600 range and as I paid a lot less I am content with the stamp but the Cert is useless!  rl  No excuse for an "EXPERT" to get this wrong . The crude repaired white splodge over the "X" is the obvious indicator of State III stamps and has been known since 1900 and clearly indicated in SG Catalogues. There should be no mistaking it even on a superficial knowledge of these stamps .. |
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salentin
Member
collecting Germany,where I live and about 20 more countries,half of them in Asia east of the Indus
Posts: 5,616
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Post by salentin on Apr 20, 2021 12:51:02 GMT
I think the "german" system is not that bad,because it keeps down the costs for expertising. The additional cost of € 20.-,(compared to € 2.- minimum-fee for one stamp with a Michel cat.value of up to € 50.-)
for an attest with a photo,is worthwhile for expensive stamps only.
The position of the name also is an indication of the condition of the stamp.The further it is placed upwards from the bottom of the stamp, the worse is her condition.
The last thing was is quite good: if you send a stamp for expertising you have to agree,that if found her a forgery,she will be marked as such. No exceptions are possible on that.
Here a fine example of a forged overprint on a stamp of the Japanese Post Offices in Korea:
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Post by mdroth on Apr 20, 2021 23:37:32 GMT
All expertizing services have made mistakes. Every single one. (PF; APEX; PSE; Weiss; RPS; Sismondo etc etc etc...) They are - after all - being done by humans!
What can you do if you find a mistake or get a cert that you think is wrong?
Well you can resubmit it/contact the expertizing service - explain your rationale & ask them to reconsider/review their original cert. I have read of cases where they will do this in the face of alot of evidence.
You can also submit the stamp to a different expertizing service & see if you get a different opinion. Be aware - I have read of numerous cases where one service said one thing and another service said the exact opposite!
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Post by mdroth on Apr 20, 2021 23:44:01 GMT
One additional comment for our little group - and I will use the example above:
I would suggest - in this case, for example - on Samoa stamps - that you - vikingeck - have as good - if not better - knowledge & expertise in this area than the so-called 'experts' at the RPS. That doesn't say anything bad about the RPS - just that they don't necessarily 'specialize' in Samoa stamps - the way you do! - and that your knowledge is likely far superior to most, including the person who reviewed & issued that cert...
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