|
Post by nbstamper on Sept 29, 2020 12:56:19 GMT
I'd like to personally thank DK (Dave) for his work on this thread. While I don't study all the stamp forums regularly, I can't recollect seeing anything quite like this. The New Zealand Chalons have always been special to me. I can remember as a kid looking longingly at the Chalon illustrations in an old Pim's catalogue (forerunner I think of the Campbell-Paterson) and wishing I could own one. In our small town in those days, buying a Chalon seemed almost impossible. But then, our one local dealer managed to find one, a nice 2d SG115 and I can't remember if he gave it to me or sold it at a modest price I could afford (I still have it). Many years and many Chalons later, I still think they are among the most beautiful stamps ever produced, notwithstanding the fact that the image has appeared on stamps from many other places, including the stamps from my home Province, New Brunswick, as well as neighbouring Prince Edward Island and Nova Scotia (not to mention early Canada). I'll eventually find time to post some more images here to help keep the thread going.
|
|
|
Post by michael on Sept 29, 2020 15:11:35 GMT
Based on an article by John Dickson in the December 2000 edition of the London Philatelist entitled "The Design and Engravings of Perkins Bacon Stamps Based on the Chalon Portrait" there are two phases of the Chalon head design as produced by Perkins Bacon. The first was used on banknotes for Nova Scotia and Australia and stamps for Nova Scotia and New Zealand. The second phase were stamps for Van Diemens Land/Tasmania, Natal, Bahamas, Queensland and Grenada which were produced from a common head die most likely engraved by William Humphrys in 1854. This version was also used in various trade plates that Perkins Bacon produced. Your item appears to be from the second phase and as it is smaller than that of the stamps, it could have been made in the 1910s/20s when Perkins Bacon used this reduced size portrait in a number of cinderella items. This includes the Margate Cottage Hospital stamps from 1921, the front cover of the programme for the 1914 Philatelic Congresss dinner and the front and back cover of the 1916/1917 War Fund Auction Catalogues. In particular the portrait size that you mention is the same size as on the front of the War Fund Auction Catalogues. As hinted in a previous post the item has nothing to do with the New Zealand Chalon stamps but an interesting item.
|
|
renden
Member
Posts: 8,705
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
|
Post by renden on Sept 29, 2020 15:18:05 GMT
michael Very interesting observ A New Brunswick Chalon Unitrade/Scott # 7 - 10 cents - 1860 I am not hijacking this fine thread of New Zealand !
|
|
DK
Member
Posts: 1,217
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
|
Post by DK on Sept 29, 2020 19:25:36 GMT
Your item appears to be from the second phase and as it is smaller than that of the stamps, it could have been made in the 1910s/20s when Perkins Bacon used this reduced size portrait in a number of cinderella items. This includes the Margate Cottage Hospital stamps from 1921, the front cover of the programme for the 1914 Philatelic Congresss dinner and the front and back cover of the 1916/1917 War Fund Auction Catalogues. In particular the portrait size that you mention is the same size as on the front of the War Fund Auction Catalogues. As hinted in a previous post the item has nothing to do with the New Zealand Chalon stamps but an interesting item. Great info there Michael. Thank you for that. So in essence, this item is a Perkins Bacon 'Proof', used in later years for Cinderellas and other such ephemera that they produced. Many thanks for your insights. Dave
|
|
DK
Member
Posts: 1,217
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
|
Post by DK on Sept 29, 2020 19:31:13 GMT
|
|
renden
Member
Posts: 8,705
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
|
Post by renden on Sept 29, 2020 21:54:35 GMT
Just an exchanges between Chalon owners - different Countries !
René
|
|
|
Post by michael on Sept 30, 2020 12:46:24 GMT
So in essence, this item is a Perkins Bacon 'Proof', used in later years for Cinderellas and other such ephemera that they produced. First thanks for making me look at my Chalon Head stamps again, they are so beautiful. No, I'm not experienced enough to say whether it is a proof, I'm suggesting that it is possible the item is associated with these Cinderella items. A 1200 dpi image of the portrait only would be useful. Also, if you look at the image with a x20 eyepiece you should see the raised ink if it was printed from an intaglio die. A 1200 dpi from the catalogue cover:
|
|
DK
Member
Posts: 1,217
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
|
Post by DK on Oct 3, 2020 20:07:27 GMT
Right. I have finally managed to get a 1200dpi scan done of this 'item'. Much more detail shows. Dave
|
|
DK
Member
Posts: 1,217
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
|
Post by DK on Oct 3, 2020 22:55:34 GMT
Just came across this image I had lying around (rescued from somewhere in the past!). I think that it looks quite impressive - just plain visually appealing really. Shame that the stamp on row 1 number 1 has a vertical crease and row 1 number 3 has a basal tear - but otherwise an attractive lot. Enjoy! SG 120Dave
|
|
|
Post by michael on Oct 4, 2020 14:03:02 GMT
Thanks DK , that changes everything. I was comparing your image height, presumably down to just below the necklace, with mine to the portrait lower border. That means you image is the full sized image, not the reduced sized one. Sorry for my mistake, perhaps I should stick to being a lurker... Therefore it may have something to do with the original sized image on a transfer roller which they used to create various trade sample plates in the 1900s as below.
Definitely worth pursusing and getting it looked at by an expert.
|
|
DK
Member
Posts: 1,217
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
|
Post by DK on Oct 4, 2020 18:41:58 GMT
Thanks Michael, appreciated.
I shall mark it in my book as 'Perkins Bacon' related.
If I get the opportunity I will show it to an expert and report back here with anything 'concrete' that I learn about it.
Cheers
Dave
PS Please don't stay a 'lurker' - How about starting a thread on Perkins Bacon and related material? That would be very interesting to many here!
|
|
gc
Member
Posts: 263
Member is Online
|
Post by gc on Oct 9, 2020 22:07:10 GMT
|
|
JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,600
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
|
Post by JeffS on Oct 9, 2020 22:47:41 GMT
gc and the other Chalon collectors - I admire your abilities to collect at this level and want to say thank you for sharing with us (me) JeffS
|
|
DK
Member
Posts: 1,217
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
|
Post by DK on Oct 10, 2020 22:44:00 GMT
Hi Dave Yes I agree there is something about the SG120 shades. Here are the items in my collection...... Hey Grant A really good post (yet again!) and some questions for you. 1. Are these all 'star' wmk examples? ie SG120 2. Are any of them the 'no wmk' varieties? SG139 I ask due to the shades which come across, on my screen at least, as yellow-orange in color. Also, the postmark on the 2nd one here is 1873 which would fit it being SG139. But lovely items all the same :-) Dave
|
|
gc
Member
Posts: 263
Member is Online
|
Post by gc on Oct 11, 2020 2:34:31 GMT
Hi Dave Cheers, yes they are all star watermark, and unfortunately not a postally used SG139 or an orange-yellow colour SG120 To the naked eye they are all quite different in shade. Here are my SG139's The first two have no watermark, the next has part letters "ER" of T H SAUNDERS The next has part letters "HS" The next has a full letter "D" and part letter "E" The last was used for presentation purposes evident by the CDS "NZ" cancellation and has part letters "UN"
|
|
murfz1
**Member**
Posts: 48
What I collect: New Zealand Chalons and Associated Material
|
Post by murfz1 on Oct 16, 2020 1:49:22 GMT
I have been looking at the First Numbered Series Obliterators, the Perkins Bacon Obliterators on the Chalon Stamps. I find it interesting looking into the Postal Cancellations and it provides a opportunity to collect and look for examples when many other variants to the Chalon Stamp are hard to find and getting expensive to purchase. I have been trying to categorise as best I can and am keen for others to view and advise if I have some incorrect on my sheets. Number "1" Number "2" Number "3" Number "4"
|
|
murfz1
**Member**
Posts: 48
What I collect: New Zealand Chalons and Associated Material
|
Post by murfz1 on Oct 16, 2020 2:14:04 GMT
I have been looking at the First Numbered Series Obliterators, the Perkins Bacon Obliterators on the Chalon Stamps. I find it interesting looking into the Postal Cancellations and it provides a opportunity to collect and look for examples when many other variants to the Chalon Stamp are hard to find and getting expensive to purchase. I have been trying to categorise as best I can and am keen for others to view and advise if I have some incorrect on my sheets. Number "5" Number "7" Number "8" Number "9" Number "10"
|
|
JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,600
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
|
Post by JeffS on Oct 16, 2020 14:54:06 GMT
murfz1A very enjoyable obliterator study. Thanks for posting.
|
|
DK
Member
Posts: 1,217
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
|
Post by DK on Oct 16, 2020 20:35:55 GMT
Good post Andrew :-)
I look forward to the conclusion of the story - from PB 11 thru' to PB 18.
I cannot see anything obviously incorrect there. Some of the obliterator examples, above, are a little hard to make out clearly but nonetheless, good post.
I will get up to my stamp room later and scan some items in as well. From what you have shown above the PB 5 takes my fancy. The wear was very noticeable on the 5A.
Dave
|
|
DK
Member
Posts: 1,217
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
|
Post by DK on Oct 16, 2020 22:34:37 GMT
Here is a page from vol.3 of the RPSNZ Handbooks. This should be helpful to those of you interested :-) Dave
|
|
DK
Member
Posts: 1,217
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
|
Post by DK on Oct 16, 2020 22:54:04 GMT
My reading of the PB5, in my vol.3 of the RPSNZ Handbooks, has things the other way round Andrew. From page 36 of vol.3 The Postage Stamps of New Zealand - 1955 "There were certainly two obliterators with the number '5'. No.8 (above) was in use in Timaru from 1860. It was still being used as a 'killer' as late as 1900. No.9 (above) was issued to Campbelltown (Bluff). Dr. Bett of Nelson had a cover dated in 1862. The obliterator was used as a 'killer' at Bluff until quite recent times (1955) when it was recalled to Wellington and is now in the Postal Museum at the G.P.O". So, 5a allocated to Timaru & 5b to Campbelltown (Bluff) according to vol.3 ! BUT, looking at Vol.7 of that Handbook it has things reversed. Vol.7 provided some new images : On page 201-202 it states: "Bluff Harbor (Campbelltown from 1 March 1863) was using its first datestamp and obliterator by March 1859 and it is possible that its obliterator 5A was supplied in 1858. Timaru 5B is referred to under 4. It was probably supplied during 1859". Under 4 (vol.7 page 201) states: "Documentary evidence(PSNZ vol.IV: 449) indicates that Akaroa, Timaru, Kaipoi and Rangiora did not have datestamps at 21 March 1859. It is likely that their obliterators 4B, 5B, 16B and 17B respectively were provided during 1859 before these offices were sent their first datestamps." Vol.7 was published in 1988 - so more up to date ! Therefore they are saying that 5A was Bluff and 5B was Timaru. (5A includes the 5A worn & 5A very worn!) which is the reverse of what they stated in vol.3!! Very confusing. Perhaps Grant (gc) or Jim (jimbabwe) knows the correct allocation as known today. Dave
|
|
DK
Member
Posts: 1,217
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
|
Post by DK on Oct 17, 2020 0:10:35 GMT
Here are a few PB 5's (Timaru/Bluff) that I have found in my books. The first ones here are on Richardson 'no wmk' prints of 1857-1861The next is on a Davies 'star wmk' copy of SG36 (a bit faint!) of 1862-1864One on a Davies 'star wmk' SG34 of 1862-1864 although I wonder about the worn state of both the printing and the obliterator!! (it may be a trimmed SG111 of 1864-1867) This one a Davies p13 SG69 of 1863An example from the 'NZ wmk' 1864 p12½ series SG108 and the p12½ 'star wmk' series SG111 and SG122 from 1864-1867Two examples, one from the 1864 series and one from the 1871 series, both very worn ! and a late example from the new colours of 1871-1873. SG135 Dave
|
|
murfz1
**Member**
Posts: 48
What I collect: New Zealand Chalons and Associated Material
|
Post by murfz1 on Oct 17, 2020 2:44:11 GMT
And I continue the Series : I have been looking at the First Numbered Series Obliterators, the Perkins Bacon Obliterators on the Chalon Stamps. I find it interesting looking into the Postal Cancellations and it provides a opportunity to collect and look for examples when many other variants to the Chalon Stamp are hard to find and getting expensive to purchase. I have been trying to categorise as best I can and am keen for others to view and advise if I have some incorrect on my sheets. Number "11" Number "12" Number "13" Number "14" The last four 15 - 18 will come shortly still need to finish the pages. regards Andrew
|
|
DK
Member
Posts: 1,217
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
|
Post by DK on Oct 17, 2020 3:07:03 GMT
OK. Looking at the history of both places, and due to the extent of the wear evident on one and not the other, then it would make sense for 5A to be Timaru and 5B to be Bluff. Bluff (or Bluff Harbour/Campbelltown) was a port town where the mails for the UK and Australia would have transited between Dunedin NZ/Aust/UK. It was also immediately south of the Otago Goldfields and, as we know, there was a population boom in Otago around the 1860's due to the discovery of gold. From A World History of Bluff: A World History of Bluff"In 1856, the port’s settlement was officially named Campbelltown but it continued to be called The Bluff—or simply Bluff—which became its official name in 1917. In 1867, Bluff was connected by railway to the burgeoning settlement of Invercargill, Southland’s commercial centre, thereby securing its status as the southern region’s main port. Bluff enabled and grew off the back of the agricultural development of the Southland plains, especially from the 1880s when frozen meat began to be exported to Britain". From Wikipedia: Timaru"European settlement began with the construction of a whaling station in 1839 by the Weller brothers of Otago at Patiti Point, close to the present town centre.[4] A supply ship, The Caroline, provided the name for a local bay. Later a sheep station, known as The Levels, was set up on land obtained by the Rhodes brothers, and run by George Rhodes.[5][6] One of the earliest settlers was Captain Henry Cain, who set up a store in 1857 on behalf of Henry Le Cren of Lyttelton, and Le Cren himself moved to Timaru in the following year.[7] Few lived in Timaru until 1859 when the ship SS Strathallan arrived from England, carrying a party of 120 immigrants.[8] Persistent land disputes arose between the Rhodes brothers and local government officials with the result that two townships were established in the port area, Government Town and Rhodestown. These eventually merged into a single community in 1868. Given this division, until recently none of the main north-south streets lined up. Stafford Street, which became the main thoroughfare, was formed along the early bullock wagon trail". Therefore, I believe that vol.3 of the RPSNZ Handbooks (1955) is correct! Vol.7 (1988) is incorrect. Dave
|
|
murfz1
**Member**
Posts: 48
What I collect: New Zealand Chalons and Associated Material
|
Post by murfz1 on Oct 21, 2020 13:42:03 GMT
And I continue the Series : 15-18 I have been looking at the First Numbered Series Obliterators, the Perkins Bacon Obliterators on the Chalon Stamps. I find it interesting looking into the Postal Cancellations and it provides a opportunity to collect and look for examples when many other variants to the Chalon Stamp are hard to find and getting expensive to purchase. I have been trying to categorise as best I can and am keen for others to view and advise if I have some incorrect on my sheets. Number "15" Number "16" Number "17" Number "18" This completes the Perkins Bacon Series (original) and will now work on the later 19 - 20 and the other Numbered Obliterators. Regards Andrew
|
|
DK
Member
Posts: 1,217
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
|
Post by DK on Oct 21, 2020 18:54:09 GMT
Hi Andrew
Nice work :-)
Looking at your PB17b above - the middle stamp, the 1d Orange-vermillion, it looks like it has a '14' postmark, not a '17'.
You may want to take a look at that one.
I am looking forward to seeing the locally produced barred obliterators now.
Dave
|
|
gc
Member
Posts: 263
Member is Online
|
Post by gc on Oct 23, 2020 18:45:57 GMT
Hi Andrew and Dave They look great when you present so many like that. Certainly shows subtle differences between the "A" and the "B" cancels Grant
|
|
murfz1
**Member**
Posts: 48
What I collect: New Zealand Chalons and Associated Material
|
Post by murfz1 on Oct 27, 2020 8:01:50 GMT
Looking at your PB17b above - the middle stamp, the 1d Orange-vermillion, it looks like it has a '14' postmark, not a '17 You may want to take a look at that one. I am looking forward to seeing the locally produced barred obliterators now. Dave Dave I have provided a Retro-reveal scan of the stamp which definitely confirms this is a PB. "17" Hope this confirms my identification. It can be hard with cancellations that are not fully clear. Regards Andrew
|
|
murfz1
**Member**
Posts: 48
What I collect: New Zealand Chalons and Associated Material
|
Post by murfz1 on Oct 27, 2020 8:10:12 GMT
I have been working away at developing my pages “Numbered Obliterators” Dunedin Postal District Cancellations – and will be completing the pages with cancellations I have in my collection. I am always looking for the missing obliterators and find it interesting and cheap at present to source new material. No. “01 - 07” Enjoy Andrew
|
|
murfz1
**Member**
Posts: 48
What I collect: New Zealand Chalons and Associated Material
|
Post by murfz1 on Oct 27, 2020 11:59:42 GMT
I have been working away at developing my pages “Numbered Obliterators” Dunedin Postal District Cancellations – and will be completing the pages with cancellations I have in my collection. I am always looking for the missing obliterators and find it interesting and cheap at present to source new material. No. “08 - 019”
|
|