polarbear
Member
Posts: 585
What I collect: Canada Used to 2015, revenues, perfins. Newfoundland, St. Pierre & Miquelon, Worldwide textiles/handwork and Christmas.
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Post by polarbear on Jan 2, 2021 13:27:56 GMT
Could someone give a rundown of the different types of covers available to collect? I have a gentleman in Austria offering to sell me non-postally used First Day Covers from Berlin for my textile collection. I’ve turned him down because 1) they’re what I understand to be philatelic covers and 2) the stamps on them are very common CTOs. I’m wondering what the different types of covers are and the differences between them?
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philatelia
Member
Captain Jack - my best kiloware find ever!
Posts: 3,655
What I collect: Ireland, Japan, Scandy, USA, Venezuela, Vatican, Bermuda, Austria
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Post by philatelia on Jan 2, 2021 14:59:19 GMT
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,551
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Jan 2, 2021 15:20:02 GMT
Oh dear , where do we start?
Items sent through the mail are generally classified as “Postal History”
1. Before stamps were introduced. “Pre stamp Covers “would be envelopes or folded letter sheets sealed with wax, they often have postmarks and handwritten or hand stamped charge markings.
2. Stamped covers with the correct postal rate for a particular service “commercial “ eg printed matter, local, international, maritime, airmail , express, registered, mail train
3. There have always been collectors who wanted “used” stamps who arranged “philatelic” covers , which legitimately went in the post , but often can be detected by having more stamps than necessary , eg. For First day cancels. These created pre 1950s are collected and described for what they are and the “philatelic” nature is generally accepted by most collectors . How else would you get a used set of George V 1935 silver jubilee from SierraLeone for example?
Since the 1960s there has been a vast increase in First Day Covers etc and these can only be described as “philatelic” 1. Home made handwritten and mailed in a local post box, sometimes rather amateur and untidy 2. Commercial productions with an illustration made by a dealer , printed or typed address, . 3 . Private productions , charity covers, philatelic groups , special commemorative covers for some anniversary ( these may not be FDC unless co-incide, with a new stamp ) 4. Postal administration Official FDCs with a generic bureau date stamp 5. Official and semi official FDCs with a special illustrated date stamp relevant to the stamp design.
many items in the last two categories may be produced and cancelled but never actually travel in the post , merely sold cancelled to order as collectors items .
if accepted for what they are ie , not commercially used, they are collectable but less desirable to some collectors due to the speculative production .
Let the purist hunt for genuine commercial used stamps if that is his/ her objective, but sometimes the pure item just does not exist!
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polarbear
Member
Posts: 585
What I collect: Canada Used to 2015, revenues, perfins. Newfoundland, St. Pierre & Miquelon, Worldwide textiles/handwork and Christmas.
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Post by polarbear on Jan 3, 2021 13:34:50 GMT
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polarbear
Member
Posts: 585
What I collect: Canada Used to 2015, revenues, perfins. Newfoundland, St. Pierre & Miquelon, Worldwide textiles/handwork and Christmas.
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Post by polarbear on Jan 3, 2021 14:43:49 GMT
Okay, so I checked the links and I’m using the term “philatelic cover” wrong. I thought it meant not postally used! But it is the term for postally used covers. The covers the guy in Austria was showing me were post office manufactured with no address, but cancelled First Day Covers - definitely not postally used. I have enough of those types of covers from my younger days of collecting. I’m gravitating towards postally used covers these days.
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ameis33
Member
What's in a name? That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet
Posts: 546
What I collect: Poland and Italy Republic
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Post by ameis33 on Jan 3, 2021 16:07:30 GMT
The term "philatelic" refers to the intent with which an object, a postage stamp, an envelope or whatever, was created. If i prepare a letter because i need or want to send an object, then it is not philatelic. It may happen the letter doesn't reach the destination, for an error, for a misunderstanding. The recipient could not be found. I can carry it by hand, give it to a private operator, whatever. But if there is a postal intent, the object is not philatelic and it can find a place in any collection. That's my opinion.
When an object, on the other hand, is prepared just for being collected, it becomes a philatelic object.
As it is pretty impossible the discuss about "intentions", there are some rules that "normally" distinguish a philatelic object:
- The frankying (postage? which is the correct word?) must not be exaggerated? showy? contrived? Made i.e. by thousand stamps, but with the minimum number of stamps as possible - The stamps must be contemporary with the date of delivery of the letter - The object must be traveled - The sender or recipient must not be known collectors
An FDC is an object created just for collectors. The postal intent is completly missing, the letter has been travelled or not...
No collectible should be born to be collected
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,551
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Jan 3, 2021 16:59:13 GMT
- The stamps must be contemporary with the date of delivery of the letter - The sender or recipient must not be known collectors An FDC is an object created just for collectors. The postal intent is completly missing, the letter has been travelled or not..... While I agree with most of what ameis33 has said in his post , I must take some issue with the two statements above . ”contemporary” we must have a wide range of latitude here . for example 1.mint stamps from 1972 are still valid for use in UK and if I send a letter to my lawyer and frank it with 3 or 4 old stamps, they will be acceptable but not recently contemporary. It may be a commercial business letter. Do the stamps make it philatelic? 2.I am a collector , my lawyer is not , but because I am a collector , is my business letter philatelic and never to be collected by someone? ( I do understand what he means of course, when you collect covers for a special country , often some addresses turn up in large numbers and you recognise collectors or dealers who obviously prepared many covers for purely philatelic interest ) 3 last month I had Christmas card from Italy which had Lire and Euro stamps to pay the postage . The Lire stamps are still valid but certainly not contemporary , but it came as regular ordinary airmail in the post . “Commercial” or “philatelic”
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ameis33
Member
What's in a name? That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet
Posts: 546
What I collect: Poland and Italy Republic
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Post by ameis33 on Jan 3, 2021 18:56:28 GMT
Look at the letter below The letter has been travelled, there are not thousands of stamps (on the back there are other two) but which makes use of the surcharged stamps "na skarb narodowy" (for the national treasur). Baggo was a stamp dealer in Gdansk and Gryzewski a well known collector/dealer (there is also the Gryzewski stamp catalog). Is it a philatelic item? Why a stamp dealer should not have the need to write a letter, even to Gryzewski who very likely was one of his clients? I define these letters, not extreme but still doubtful, with a term which is just mine, as "semi-philatelic"...
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ameis33
Member
What's in a name? That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet
Posts: 546
What I collect: Poland and Italy Republic
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Post by ameis33 on Jan 3, 2021 19:00:52 GMT
And look at this... If the previous one was "semi-philatelic", this is definetly philatelic... Clean, maybe also with the correct postal rate, but... BTW! The unperforated 50zl airmal stamp, i don't believe has been purchased at the post office...
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ameis33
Member
What's in a name? That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet
Posts: 546
What I collect: Poland and Italy Republic
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Post by ameis33 on Jan 3, 2021 19:26:40 GMT
Anyway, philatelic or not, all stamps and letter have the right to be part of a collection... Also, some stamps arrived nowadays just on philatelic covers...
Just the collector can decide what to put in his collection.
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,551
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Jan 3, 2021 19:34:57 GMT
Yes it is a very grey area .......we must chose for ourselves , to collect or not collect., that is the question.
So often from years past, specially created covers are all that is available for most collectors, as absolutely genuine commercial usage is so scarce as to be almost impossible to find.
The old time collector making a few covers, contemporary but philatelic , may be the only source, and often we have to accept that and be grateful . If we realise this then the price for philatelic must always be lower than the price for genuine use. It may sometimes be hard to be definite for sure.
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polarbear
Member
Posts: 585
What I collect: Canada Used to 2015, revenues, perfins. Newfoundland, St. Pierre & Miquelon, Worldwide textiles/handwork and Christmas.
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Post by polarbear on Jan 3, 2021 19:50:43 GMT
Ah...okay, so I was right, not wrong! I was confused by something I read on one of the links posted earlier. Possibly from reading before breakfast and half asleep! Thanks for the further discussion ameis33 and vikingeck !
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,551
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Jan 3, 2021 20:09:43 GMT
You are welcome Ma’am, it is often discussed by collectors . There are those who like covers what ever their origin , there are those who would prefer genuine used contemporary Mailings, and there are the others ( generally those with deep pockets) who fiercely insist “Only Genuine Usage “ and denigrate items philatelically created. ( fortunately they are in an elite minority but their comments can hurt!)
Many years ago when I had not long started collecting early Samoa, I paid a substantial sum for a registered cover with Samoa stamps which had gone by ship and cancelled in Levuka Fiji en route to London . All perfectly correct and quite unusual. The sender, addressed to himself in Germany, was a Dr Franke.
My purchase was mocked publicly by an Expert now deceased. “Philatelic .... not worthy of including in a serious collection of Samoa”.
My pride was dented , but I come back strongly by saying , “OK , find me a couple of others like this, if Dr Franke had not prepared such a cover in 1901 , how many covers would exist for collectors like me to illustrate a correct postal process which hardly ever happened? “
I still have the cover , maybe I paid too much but in 20 years I have only seen one other Dr Franke letter and that sold for $500
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Jerry B
Departed
Rest in Peace
Marietta, Georgia USA
Posts: 1,485
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Post by Jerry B on Jan 3, 2021 20:23:26 GMT
Hi
Covers may describe a specific topic and a thematic collection can be formed..
Someone helping us showed me his collection of WW II Concentration Camp covers. One doesn't realize that there was mail from these camps: prisoners (not a whole lot) and guards/soldiers. The December APS also had an article about these covers pertaining to Christmas..
Spent a lot of time looking through the collection as it was highly interesting.
Jerry B
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ameis33
Member
What's in a name? That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet
Posts: 546
What I collect: Poland and Italy Republic
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Post by ameis33 on Jan 3, 2021 20:26:39 GMT
I hope not to be considered such "purist"... I must say i like more a genuine (i.e. non philatelic) item, but that doesn't stop me to put this letter in my collection. Anyway, it is not difficult to please myself when i see it... Krakow, 25 april 1949, franked with the whole set of stamps for the tubercolosis.
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renden
Member
Posts: 9,162
What I collect: Canada-USA-France-Lithuania-Austria--Germany-Mauritius-French Colonies in Africa
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Post by renden on Jan 3, 2021 20:47:31 GMT
In summary, a cover is a cover
FDC=First day cover
C= cover
I am very simplistic in covers but the content (stamp(s), postmarks, destination, etc is important to me !
Cheers for covers !
René
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brightonpete
Departed
Rest in Peace
On a hike at Goodrich-Loomis
Posts: 5,110
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Post by brightonpete on Jan 3, 2021 21:50:29 GMT
I have been keeping all my "covers" mailed to me in a box. All are "philatelic" in nature, but then aren't we all philatelists?
I like these covers covered in stamps. I shudder to think that my brother would just chuck them all in the garbage if I should die before him! But the market for these covers would be rather limited.
I'm leaving instructions on what to do with them, with one option being a donation to the Trenton Stamp Club. They can also get my books and catalogues as well & maybe some of my collection.
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Post by dgdecker on Jan 3, 2021 22:45:59 GMT
I do not spend very much time on terms that are assigned to an item. I think the only time I care is if I was considering a pricy item that eventually will be sold on. Generally I collect covers that fit into my narrow collection parameters. I concentrate on items from places that interest me the most: my hometown, slogans from companies that no longer exist in my home province, covers related to the areas my ancestors settled, select Canada FDC. Personal interest or history.
I do not actively seek out these items. If I find them while hunting for stamps, I decide then whether I purchase.
Conversations like this thread are most educational. A bit of new knowledge never hurt me.
David
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stanley64
Member
Posts: 1,985
What I collect: Canada, USA, Netherlands, Portugal & Colonies, Antarctic Territories and anything that catches my eye...
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Post by stanley64 on Jan 4, 2021 11:49:44 GMT
Yup and to paraphrase Gertrude Stein a "Cover is a cover is a cover is a cover" If went through the postal system, it is a cover; albeit some are more philatelic in nature than others ;-)
My own collection of Antarctic material would be rather sparse if I had to rely upon pure or non-philatelic items. At the same time and even though they all went via a sanctioned route or mail system, I must admit those items those that are of a personal nature and were not 'per-fabricated' are cherished items...
Happy collecting!
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