Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 6, 2021 7:33:42 GMT
Moderator Note: This post was originally made in a thread about stamps of Serbia, but moved here to create a new thread on the technical topic of chalky or chalk-surfaced paper and how to identify it, especially compared to uncoated paper.
Genuine examples of both the 1911 and 1914 stamps will be on chalky paper. Can you tell if the paper on your gutter pair is chalky? I don't try the various tricks such as silver wire or rubbing the stamp surface on my lower lip, whatever that's supposed to do - I use a high power loupe or a digital microscope to look for paper smoothness on the surface (chalky paper is much smoother and doesn't have the porous surface seen on uncoated paper). Darrin ( darkormex ), in response to your comment in the Shout-Box about chalky or chalk-surfaced paper, here is a comment from Ryan on how to identify chalk-surfaced versus uncoated paper. I found this in a thread titled Some Interesting Serbia Stamps. That old thread name now changed to Serbia: Prince Karageorgevich Issues 1911-1914. After making this post, I am planning to move it and start a new thread on this subject so that hopefully the discussion can continue.
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darkormex
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Post by darkormex on Mar 6, 2021 13:36:45 GMT
Thanks Beryllium Guy, I will go into detail later this evening about the specific stamps I am referring to.
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Ryan
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What I collect: If I have a catalogue for it, I collect it. And I have many catalogues ....
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Post by Ryan on Mar 6, 2021 18:35:26 GMT
I should perhaps qualify my use of the term "porous' in the quote above. You can think of normal unfinished paper as being just a pile of fibres all stuck together, with the fibres being visible under high magnification. Here's an example I've posted before (thus I have the scan available to me): The above is extreme magnification, 200x, but the fibres are easy to see. Chalk-surfaced papers have a material laid over top of the paper - it's a surface of something runny which dries out and that is where my "porous" statement could cause problems. You can often see tiny pinholes in the chalk surface - I assume there are small air bubbles mixed in with the chalk and if they pop as the surface is drying, they leave a little crater. These craters could also be described as "porous", thus my poor choice of words. There are some relatively common Hong Kong stamps (and other British Commonwealth stamps too) which are only available in chalk-surfaced printings - worldwide collectors could use these stamps to get an idea of how to tell the difference between the two types. For example, in this King George VI set of definitives (authored by TSF member kgvistamps ) everything with a face value of 30c and under is on regular paper while most issues with a face value 50c and over are on chalk-surfaced paper (there are some which are also found on ordinary paper - 50c, each one of the 1946 dollar value issues). Similarly, the first Hong Kong definitive set featuring Queen Elizabeth II (same basic design as above, just a Queen instead of a King) uses regular paper for the 5c, 10c & 15c issues, while all higher face values are printed on chalk-surfaced paper. Papers were chalk-surfaced because that improved the printing quality. Instead of having a rough ugly surface full of paper fibres, you could get nice clean printing on a nice smooth surface. Sometimes you can determine whether a stamp is on normal or surfaced paper just by looking at how clean the printing is (again, high magnification is required, although 60x is probably enough to be certain). I've also seen sites which recommend that you look for ink pooling up at the edges of printing, presumably the fibrous paper allows the ink to soak in somewhat as it dries whereas the ink is more likely to sit on the surface of the chalk. The reason why you see these recommendations of testing for chalk surfaces by rubbing a silver wire is because you're doing a basic hardness test. Plain unalloyed silver isn't very hard but it is harder than plain paper - it isn't harder than chalk-surfaced paper (think of the chalk surface as being baked like a ceramic). So, when you rub on the hard surface with a soft wire, it's like writing with a pencil. I think that's an awful idea, "let's see if we can scribble on the face of this stamp with a silver pencil, if we can it must be chalk-surfaced". Use magnification instead! Ryan
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hrdoktorx
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Post by hrdoktorx on Mar 7, 2021 10:57:55 GMT
Just in case people need to know, for the purpose of using foreign-language catalogs, "chalky paper" translates as "papier couché" in French, and, I think, as "almindeligt papir" in Danish (i.e. the AFA catalogs).
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stanley64
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What I collect: Canada, USA, Netherlands, Portugal & Colonies, Antarctic Territories and anything that catches my eye...
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Post by stanley64 on Mar 7, 2021 11:33:49 GMT
Amongst all the paper varieties available with the Portuguese Ceres issues, porcelain or chalk is one of them,
Moçambique Ceres (1914) Afinsa nº 153/168 perforated 15 x 14, paper type - porcelana médio (medium chalk-surfaced paper)
These issues definitely have a tell-tale sheen or porcelain look to them in their printing and colouring. For the Portuguese stamps, three different types of chalk papers were used: porcelana médio (medium chalk-surfaced), porcelana ordinário (ordinary chalk-surfaced) and porcelana colorido (coloured chalk-surfaced).
As you see or handle more of this type, it quickly becomes apparent what is chalk and what is not...
Happy collecting!
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angore
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Post by angore on Mar 7, 2021 11:54:46 GMT
When I was comparing ordinary paper and chalk coated paper, I was able to see the visual difference. The comment in shoutbox mentioned surface colored paper. I think the comparison then is surface colored vs colored paper.
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 7, 2021 12:39:29 GMT
Thanks to all for their posts to add to the content of this thread: Ryan, stanley64, hrdoktorx, and angoreVince, I did see your posts regarding the chalk-surfaced paper in the Ceres thread, so I am glad that you have put in a link back to that in this thread, too. Al, thanks for your post, too. Yes, I had picked up on Darrin's ( darkormex) comment of chalk-surfaced versus surface-colored paper, and frankly, I wasn't really sure where he was going with that, as they are two completely different things to my understanding. So, I thought we would start by focusing on the chalk-surfaced paper versus uncoated, and go from there. My experience with surface-colored paper has not been good, as I ruined a couple of KGV Straits Settlements definitives that were apparently on surface-colored paper when I soaked them in water. I was able to see the surface color get removed from the stamp just a moment after I put it into the water. I was dismayed, to say the least. I have had a similar experience with what I believe to be chalk-surfaced paper on some KEVII definitive stamps from Transvaal. In that case, the color did not dissolve almost instantly like the surface-colored ones, but I could see it starting to dissolve, and I took the stamp out of the water and dried it immediately. There was still some slight blurring and fading of the color, but at least I stopped before it was completely ruined. As a question to you or anyone else who might know: will the ink on chalk-surfaced stamps or on surface-colored stamps always be fugitive in water? Is that a given?
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darkormex
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Post by darkormex on Mar 7, 2021 12:56:50 GMT
I am the one that started all this and sorry for not actually posting the stamps I am referring to. I was caught up in watching Outlander with my wife last night and then went to bed.
The stamps I am referring to are the first set of stamp from Nigeria, the KGV stamps with watermark plain-style font CA, which Scott says come on what it terms normal paper, chalky paper and surface-colored paper. 5 of the values are surface-colored paper and I guess my ultimate question is how to distinguish between.
Also, is identification of these differences more difficult if the stamps are used vs. mint?
I will, again, try to post these this afternoon or evening when I am free.
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kgvistamps
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What I collect: British Colonies - King George VI from all countries and King Edward VII & King George V from the West Indies.
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Post by kgvistamps on Mar 7, 2021 15:22:09 GMT
The stamps I am referring to are the first set of stamp from Nigeria, the KGV stamps with watermark plain-style font CA, which Scott says come on what it terms normal paper, chalky paper and surface-colored paper. 5 of the values are surface-colored paper and I guess my ultimate question is how to distinguish between. Also, is identification of these differences more difficult if the stamps are used vs. mint? Ironically, the 1912 Nigeria set is not one where you have to identify chalk or ordinary paper to identify the stamps. The values from 1/2d to 2-1/2d were printed on ordinary paper, and the remaining values were printed on chalk paper. This is according to the Stanley Gibbons Catalogue. This is true for the King George V issues in general. Where you do have to identify chalk paper on British Colony stamps are the King Edward VII stamps printed on paper watermarked MCA, and the King George VI issues. Unfortunately the coatings differ, so there is no one size fits all rule. But what I look for in the King Edward VII stamps is how well the impression is printed. The chalk coating (which is not actually chalk) allows the ink to saturate the paper better than the ordinary paper. You might also see a sheen if you look at the stamp under a strong light. I use spot lamps that I purchased from an office supply store. You can also lightly drag your finger across the surface of the stamp. The chalk coating will tend to feel slick with less drag than the ordinary paper. Try this on stamps that are known - like your Nigeria stamps.
The silver test works on some stamps, but not very well on others. This is where you drag a piece of silver across the margin of a stamp. It will produce a pencil like line if there is a chalk coating - sometimes. This is not foolproof. Some coated stamps do not react well to this test. It is also placing a mark on your stamps. Although it can be erased, some collectors don't want to use this test.
The King George VI British Colony stamps that have chalk coatings tend to have them on the first printings in 1938 until the early 1940's. The stamps were printed on ordinary paper during the 1942-1946 time period due to shortages of supplies during the war. Chalk coated paper was used again in the late 1940's.
Enclosed is a graphic I put together for my Facebook page showing how to identify the St. Kitts-Nevis 6d values based on the Gibbons listings. There are four listings, but only one is the ordinary paper. SG 74c which actually makes up a number of printings has a much poorer impression than the other printings which were all on chalk coated paper. If you save the image to your PC, you can enlarge it and see what I mean about the quality of the printing.
There are a number of differences you can use to determine the chalk coatings. Just figure out where they apply and then get some sample stamps to understand how to identify it. Remember that the characteristics change at various times, so you have to find samples from the same time period as you learn how to identify these stamps.
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Post by greaden on Mar 7, 2021 18:11:58 GMT
For French African colonies, chalk paper was used to spiff up the low-quality paper used in the wake of WWI.
Clues for identifying it:
1) sharper signatures on the bottom margin.
2) magnification of perfs shows where the chalk layer has broken.
3) if one rubs the surface of the stamp on one's lower lip, chalk paper is much smoother. This can be awkward at a dealer's table.
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darkormex
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Post by darkormex on Mar 8, 2021 2:31:01 GMT
I finally got a chance to scan the page from my Nigeria collection that I was referring to. Scott lists, like Steiner has laid out on this page, ordinary paper, chalky paper and surface-colored paper. I am going to try to re-identify the meager number of stamps that I have already mounted on these pages given the advice above (thank you everyone and especially, Beryllium Guy , for creating this thread). It also sounds to me, based on what kgvistamps has said above, that the Scott listings and, hence, the Steiner pages are possibly in error (which is not surprising). Only the 3p, 4p, 1sh, 5sh and 10sh were printed, according to Scott, on surface-colored paper but it sounds to me based on what is being said above that this is the same as chalky paper and that this is a phantom identification created by Scott or am I misunderstanding what was said? Here is my paltry collection of dupes for reference...These are basically of no help anyway because they were only printed on ordinary paper. I have more on the way. I recently purchased a small lot on eBay that may fill in some of my blank spots, so perhaps there will be additional opportunities to figure out the differences.
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kgvistamps
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What I collect: British Colonies - King George VI from all countries and King Edward VII & King George V from the West Indies.
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Post by kgvistamps on Mar 8, 2021 14:04:09 GMT
What Scott refers to as Surface Colored Paper - Gibbons calls White Back. Peter Fernbank has an excellent book on the King George V keyplate issues - "King George V Key Plates of the Imperium Postage and Revenue Design" that goes into a lot of detail about the colored papers that were used for these issues. There were a number of changes in the paper during the time period from 1912 thru about 1920 where different manufacturers were making this paper. The initial yellow and green papers were not available when the surface colored papers were used. Essentially they are made from white paper that is coated on the surface with the yellow or green color to make them appear like the earlier yellow and green paper issues. It is simple to identify them - just look at the back of the stamp. I am attaching a chart I made for my Facebook page that shows the various options for the Cayman Islands 3d value. The same paper was used for all of the KGV Key Plate issues, as long as there was a stamp printed during the time period the particular stamp was printed. I will make a second post to show the green paper colors.
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kgvistamps
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What I collect: British Colonies - King George VI from all countries and King Edward VII & King George V from the West Indies.
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Post by kgvistamps on Mar 8, 2021 14:06:52 GMT
Here is the chart I created for the Green Paper issues. Notice that there are really two variations of what is called Green Paper. One is Green and the other is Blue-Green.
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darkormex
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Post by darkormex on Mar 8, 2021 14:46:45 GMT
kgvistamps, thank you for all of this helpful information. This is really not explained well in the Scott Catalogue, or, if it is, I could not find it. Yes, definitely these will be easy to identify. Also, I now understand why you stated, "Ironically, the 1912 Nigeria set is not one where you have to identify chalk or ordinary paper to identify the stamps." That had me puzzled until now.
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kgvistamps
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What I collect: British Colonies - King George VI from all countries and King Edward VII & King George V from the West Indies.
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Post by kgvistamps on Mar 8, 2021 15:21:38 GMT
Since we are discussing the Nigeria set in particular, you also need to understand the different between the two dies used to print these stamps. Most of the KGV Key Plate issues were printed using Die I on the stamps watermarked Multiple Crown CA, and Die II on the stamps watermarked Multiple Script CA. But the Nigeria set has cases where both dies were used on the same watemarked paper. So in addition to sorting by the watermark, you also need to check the die. Here is chart I put together than will show where to look to determine Die I or Die II. Have fun sorting this set. It is a really interesting one.
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darkormex
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What I collect: The World...just printing and mounting as I go...call me crazy!
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Post by darkormex on Mar 9, 2021 2:38:09 GMT
kgvistamps, thanks again for all your help with this thread. I was aware of the die varieties but this will certainly be helpful for those who are not.
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darrenk
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Post by darrenk on Feb 7, 2024 7:53:43 GMT
So this question of Chalk paper vs Ordinary paper has been bugging me as well. I'm sorting out George the VI material from Leeward Islands and Bahamas and there are major price differences between the two papers. I have several digital microscopes so I have done some scans as well as taken pictures on the microscope at 60x magnification. In this case the 2 stamps are obvious in the scans, but that is not always the case. When seen under magnification the smoothness of the Chalk paper is very obvious compared to the fibrous look of the ordinary paper. The sharpness of the engraving is greatly enhanced with the Chalk surfaced paper as can be seen from the microscope pictures. This is a scan at 600DPI with Chalk paper first and Ordinary paper second. 1200DPI of chalk paper (SG 95a) 1200DPI Ordinary paper (SG 95) Printed area of Chalk paper at 60x magnification. Printed area of Ordinary paper at 60x magnification.
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Post by gstamps on Feb 7, 2024 9:46:33 GMT
To identify the paper on German stamps, I also use a strong light behind the stamp to observe the paper's structure and transparency. Can someone who has both types of papers perform this test and show us the results. I suspect that chalk paper will be more opaque than ordinary paper, where it is possible to see the structure of white dots, like wowe paper.
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Londonbus1
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What I collect: Cinderellas and some Ephemera from Great Britain, France and Israel plus a few beautiful bits from elsewhere !! Topical interests include Flags & Judaica, the latter with an emphasis on the Jewish National Fund.
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Post by Londonbus1 on Feb 7, 2024 11:38:00 GMT
Here's an example of the 'silver' Chalky test on a very scarce 1923 Exhibition stamp. You can see the result at top left on the Royal Purple stamp. The other is on ordinary paper.
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