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Post by smauggie on Apr 12, 2021 18:43:34 GMT
1819 - Este to Padua in the province of Veneto. I think it is a registered cover. I think it is prepaid. If I am wrong please enlighten me.  |
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rex
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Post by rex on Apr 12, 2021 20:11:12 GMT
Hi smauggie , I'd like to ask you, how do you know it's from 1819. There are other clues to the other side or it is completely white. I posted photos of the envelope on an Italian philately forum, where I hope to receive expert answers to your questions. For now I can only say that it was sent by the Este public prosecutor's office to the Padua provincial court. |
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Post by smauggie on Apr 12, 2021 20:23:20 GMT
Hi smauggie , I'd like to ask you, how do you say it's from 1819. There are other clues to the other side or it is completely white. There is a date on an outside flap. It looks like the sender had someone write the letter for them and then signed in pencil. Here is what the letter says:  |
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rex
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Post by rex on Apr 12, 2021 20:43:01 GMT
The writing speaks of a mortgage, debts, if I have interpreted correctly.
In the upper right corner I feel like I'm reading RESTANTE .
Posta Restante is a system in wich a post office keep's someone's posts until it ca be collected.
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ameis33
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Post by ameis33 on Apr 12, 2021 23:27:41 GMT
Seems more an official letter sent from the Pretura (magistrates court?) of Este to the Tribunale Provinciale (provincial court?) of Padova. (BTW! Este and Padova are very close).
So it should travel exempt, not prepaid, not registered. The numbers on the left side are (should be) the registration numbers of the letter, but more then a postal registration is the internal registration of the court.
I read in the content:
Pervenuto il riscontro da questo
uffizio Ipoteche della prenotazione eseguita
dell'atto a questa pretura trasmesso con
ossequiata nota di codesto tribunale
Provinciale 25 (...) Maggio N. 4697 si
fa sollecito in copia conforme di innoltrarlo
ai relativi suoi riscontrati.
Pretura di Este 29 giugno 1819
It's an arcaic language, difficult to make a translation in english
Sounds to me like:
After receiving the feedback from the mortgage office to the act delivered by the provincial court n. 4697 of the 25 of may, we solicitate to deliver it to the related parts.
Seems a comunication between court offices related to the execution of an act.
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Post by smauggie on Apr 13, 2021 0:26:42 GMT
It's an arcaic language, difficult to make a translation in english That makes sense why I was having such a hard time with it. I have cursory understanding of the language, but was struggling. I recognized some words but not others. Thanks! |
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rex
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Post by rex on Apr 13, 2021 10:06:10 GMT
 A friend of the Italian forum suggests that what is written in the upper right corner may be the word 'flying'..(Volante). The expression "flying seal letter" meant a letter which, for particular reasons (any checks to be carried out during transport or other), was sent open, without being sealed. |
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rex
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Post by rex on Apr 13, 2021 10:15:53 GMT
Surely it is a letter from the franchise as Roberto ameis33 rightly says, but a little doubt remains for this sign that it could be a number, exactly the amount to be paid perhaps at destiny ..?! 
I would find interesting the opinion of vikingeck.. on the subject, being Alex an expert philatelic antiquarian. |
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vikingeck
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Post by vikingeck on Apr 13, 2021 10:59:17 GMT
you flatter me rex ! Expert not ! Some knowledge acquired perhaps , but none on early Europeans ! This means I am guessing, 1. The boxed handstamp looks like an official mark from the ESTE Pretura as ameis33 suggests , not necessarily a postal marking just a statement of origin. 2. the "4" certainly looks like a charge to be paid . 3. the No 1740/1440 could signify registration ?? but it might also simply be an office record filing number 4. "Restante" or "Volante" PERHAPS but I don't know, could it even be "Instante" ? 5 what is the word below looks like "responsiva" ......................... |
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rex
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Post by rex on Apr 13, 2021 12:25:05 GMT
 First of all thank you for replying. No flattery, your opinions are based on extensive experience. The word to your number 5 is RESPONSIVA translated from archaic Italian (reply letter, reply). Looking at your option number 4, I don't think the assumed word could be INSTANTE, it seems to have no references in Italian postal history. For your option number 2, another friend from the Italian forum put forward the same idea as you, that 4 is the charge requested at destination. The same for your option number 1, fits perfectly with the idea of our italian friend. |
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vikingeck
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Post by vikingeck on Apr 13, 2021 12:46:42 GMT
You don't thing that it could simply be a request for an "Instant response" ? an acknowledgement ? Not a postal instruction, just a private request from the sender
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rex
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Post by rex on Apr 13, 2021 13:02:54 GMT
You instill doubt in me, in all honesty I don't rule it out.
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rex
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Post by rex on Apr 13, 2021 14:15:46 GMT
 Speaking of the writing on the upper right corner, a friend of the Italian forum posted a cover addressed to the same address in Padua with the same writing..DIPARTE.. leaving. I think this other piece reinforces Alex's vikingeck assumption ... that he was talking about a private non-postal request. |
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vikingeck
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Post by vikingeck on Apr 13, 2021 14:36:08 GMT
I assume "Diparte" means "mailed , posted, sent" ? The red crayon mark could it also be a "4" , red meaning already paid by sender?
The sending office has a very fancy personal handstamp hard to read but is it DOLO? which might connect to the red crayon partly hidden by your blue circle .
The number on the left could be a filing reference again
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rex
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Post by rex on Apr 13, 2021 14:39:55 GMT
Correct ..Diparte .. means posted, sent. Dolo is a village in the district of Veneto not far from Padua. |
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Post by smauggie on Apr 13, 2021 14:46:42 GMT
The reason I assumed it was prepaid was because it was being sent to the government which I would assume (perhaps wrongly?) that the government would not accept postage due mail.
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rex
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Post by rex on Apr 13, 2021 15:17:49 GMT
A little more information for your cover.In 1819 that part of Italy was under the State of Lombardy-Venetia, it was not yet a united Italy but a small state under Austrian jurisdiction.
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vikingeck
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Post by vikingeck on Apr 13, 2021 15:31:20 GMT
Another thought. I assumed the word DOLO in red was a crayon, I now think it actually might be a handstamp postmark of the village and in red ink because paid in advance
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rex
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Post by rex on Apr 13, 2021 17:18:18 GMT
Dolo is handstamped postmark not crayon.
I think at this point we can consider a prepayment for both covers, .. or not .. ??!
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ameis33
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Post by ameis33 on Apr 14, 2021 3:35:18 GMT
The letter posted by rex is pretty similar to the previous one.
Stamp identifing the office (which i can't identify, but i think it's a pubblic office if not a court)
Registration number on the left top corner (not a postal registration number)
"Diparte" handwritten note, similar to the previous one, and like the previous one, i don't know the meaning. Anyway, not a postal sign.
Handwritten adnotation, like the previous one, most probably made by the postal clerk, but with which meaning? The postal rate? It couldn't be the weight?
In my opinion, another official letter tax exempt, but still an opinion...
Dolo is not handwritten, it's a postmark. Why a linear postmark and not circular, like in use today? Because circular postmarks were introduced later. The first postmarks were all linear like this one. In the 18th century delivery/arrival postmarks were not used, or seldom used. At the beginning of 19th century, postal administrations start using linear postmarks, and circular arrived just later. About the color of the ink, i'm not sure about a relation between color and payment of the letter fee. I have some transit postmarks applied in red color regardless the letter was paid or not.
About the word "RESTANTE", well, the letter has been shipped in 1819 (or 1838 this last one). Was the "poste restante" service (i don't know the right term in english) already active in the first half of XIX century? I'm not sure, but i believe it has been introduced after the UPU congress, in the second half of 1800. Consider that in 1819 postal administration were still at the beginning, the postal treaties between Prussia and France (among the firsts signed) were signed in 1815, the volume of correspondence were not so high, not many people could also write, the cost was high, it was enough to write "Roberto in Milano" as destination address to be sure the letter would arrive. The train was just invented, letters were delivered by coaches, by horses, by feet... To think to postal boxes is not anachronistic?
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daniel
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Post by daniel on Jun 19, 2021 3:58:50 GMT
An interesting cover from Bolzano, the capital city of the province of South Tyrol in northern Italy. A registered first day cover marking the centenary of the Italian Geographical Society with a block of 4 of the 40 Lire stamp issued and postmarked on 20th March 1967 and sent, poste restante, to Pietro Montebugnoli, WBAS (the Weather Bureau Airport Station), Barter Island, Alaska.
The reverse shows a further 3 Italian stamps, presumably to make up the registered postage. German is one of the official languages of Bolzano and these stamps are postmarked with a bilingual handstamp which reads Bolzano C.P. on the left and Bozen (the German for Bolzano) and ABGANG (the German for departure) on the right, date not legible.
The cover arrived at Anchorage, Alaska on 22nd March 1967 and is duly backstamped. Below the stamps on the reverse is a message stating:
'For collection within 5 days, please return it to the sender', and the sender is the same Pietro Montebugnoli to whom the cover was sent.
Finally, there is one further postmark for Kaktovik, Alaska which is in North Slope Borough, the same Borough as Barter Island. This is dated 14th August 1967. Possibly the date that it was returned to the sender as planned all along.
 Scan_20210619 by Daniel, on Flickr
 Scan_20210619 (2) by Daniel, on Flickr
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rex
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Post by rex on Jun 19, 2021 8:12:26 GMT
The impression I have when looking at this cover is that it was sent with the intention/purpose that the cover would come back.
It is only an impression and certainly my analysis is not correct but to me it seems a purely philatelic sending.
Collectors of postmarks sometimes send mail to unknown people in particular places like this base, with the intent of having the cover returned with the postmarks of the place.
However, it is an interesting cover with uncommon cancellations and destinations.
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