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Post by spain1850 on Sept 9, 2013 2:36:54 GMT
I've been trying to finish my pages for the first wavy line issues of Denmark and ran into something that has me stumped. In the Facit catalog, there are 2 different types of the 2ö red, as shown below. Type I has an oblique top arm on the E of the right hand "ORE" (left stamp below), and type II has a straight top arm (right hand stamp). The problem is that Facit only lists these 2 types for the perf 14 x 14 ½ issues of 1913-30, with the cross wmk (Scott 86, Facit 87). I do have samples of both of these, but the ones pictured below are from the perf 12 ¾ x 12 ¾ issues with the crown wmk of 1905-17 (Scott 58, Facit 77). Can someone tell me, who has a Facit, if I'm just not seeing something in the catalog? Unfortunately, these types are not referenced in Scott catalog. I'm just trying to figure out if I want to add an appropriate space for these ini my album or not.
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rod222
Member
Posts: 9,852
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Sept 9, 2013 3:13:54 GMT
Have you the two printings ? 1905 and 1917? I am working with gibbons. watch for small hearts omitted.
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Post by spain1850 on Sept 9, 2013 3:21:07 GMT
Are you refering to the 1917 issues that are perf 14 x 14½ WITH the wmk crown? If so, no. I only have the wmk crown that are perf 12¾ x 12¾, and perf 14 x 14½ with wmk cross. Haven't found any with hearts omitted. Facit also lists hearts omitted AND hearts partly omitted as separate varieties.
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rod222
Member
Posts: 9,852
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Sept 9, 2013 7:00:10 GMT
Sorry, Spain, my internet went almost to a crawl, it does that sometimes in the country.
My 2 ore in Gibbons Denmark, show 3 types 1905,1917 and booklet panes. The differing font is NOT addressed.
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Post by jkjblue on Sept 9, 2013 19:29:35 GMT
My Facit (2088 Special) has, for Facit 87 2 öre red.... Type I: Upper line on E on right ORE straight cut, foot point on 2 rounded. Type II: Upper line on E on right ORE oblique cut, foot point on 2 pointed. It says nothing about Facit 77. A comment ...... • Do you have examples of Type I/II for Facit 87? It would be nice to look at them. Are they exactly the same (in description and appearance) as the Facit 77 stamps you have shown? If so, I would consult with some Denmark specialists to see what is really going on here. A new discovery?
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Ryan
Member
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,719
What I collect: If I have a catalogue for it, I collect it. And I have many catalogues ....
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Post by Ryan on Sept 9, 2013 19:34:44 GMT
I've been trying to finish my pages for the first wavy line issues of Denmark and ran into something that has me stumped. In the Facit catalog, there are 2 different types of the 2ö red, as shown below. Type I has an oblique top arm on the E of the right hand "ORE" (left stamp below), and type II has a straight top arm (right hand stamp). The problem is that Facit only lists these 2 types for the perf 14 x 14 ½ issues of 1913-30, with the cross wmk (Scott 86, Facit 87). I do have samples of both of these, but the ones pictured below are from the perf 12 ¾ x 12 ¾ issues with the crown wmk of 1905-17 (Scott 58, Facit 77). Can someone tell me, who has a Facit, if I'm just not seeing something in the catalog? Unfortunately, these types are not referenced in Scott catalog. I have both a Facit and an AFA for Denmark, and they don't help me a lot. Facit is written in Swedish and uses the terms rakt & snett to describe the difference. In English, Facit uses oblique and straight, and looking at alternate translations the words askew and square would also be valid. The problem for me is with the Facit illustration - there is almost no difference visible between the two types. The AFA illustration is slightly larger and there is a slight amount of upward tilt to the top leg of the "E". Along with the slight upward tilt, the illustration shows that the end of the top leg doesn't extend as far to the right as the bottom leg does. Again, the difference is slight and in the Facit illustration you almost can't see it - if you weren't told to look for it you'd probably never spot it. If I straighten your type II stamp and zoom in, I can't really see any indication of the top leg being tilted upward - I wouldn't note it as a type II. One helpful note in Facit is that both 7 øre colours and the 12 øre stamp (all of these with hearts) are printed only in type II - if you have any of these, you can compare the ØREs. Considering that these stamps were printed with typography (letterpress), the edges of any image elements are always prone to a little bit of squash and wobble - you seldom get perfect straight lines with typography, there is often what looks like a bit of overinking, a kind of overspill around the edges. I think this is going to make it tricky to spot such tiny differences. You might have more luck looking at the numeral 2, on type II stamps there is a sharp corner at the lower left point of the numeral which is slightly rounded on type I. AFA agrees with Facit and does not list these type variances for the 1905 issue. Ryan
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Post by jkjblue on Sept 9, 2013 22:43:45 GMT
Excellent point Ryan! And I thought I was the only one to not really see the differences in the Facit illustration based on the Type I/II description.
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Post by spain1850 on Sept 10, 2013 5:48:46 GMT
Ryan - Oops, apparently I got the Type I and type II backwards. Here is a closeup of the pair above, which is Facit 77, which I have corrected the "type" tags from my original post. Here is a pair of Facit 87. and a closeup of the same pair. Jkblue - Yes, it looks like the type I and type II in both are the same to me, with the exception that the type II on the 77 seems a little more heavily inked.
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Ryan
Member
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,719
What I collect: If I have a catalogue for it, I collect it. And I have many catalogues ....
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Post by Ryan on Sept 10, 2013 17:26:48 GMT
I've scanned the illustrations in the AFA Danmark catalogue at 1200 dpi and you can see what I mentioned earlier. Type II stamps show a slight upward tilt to the upper arm of the "E", and the top leg of the "E" also is a bit short and doesn't extend as far to the right. Apologies for the fuzzy scan, that image was right up against the spine of the book and I couldn't get it open enough. Type I
Type II
Your stamps show the upper arm slanted in the other direction. Given that you have two different examples, I would expect that you have a plate variety, but I don't know of any Danish plate variety catalogues - more's the pity, I really like plate variety catalogues! You might also have a variety in another one of the stamps you posted, a misformed stem to the "P" at bottom left. But you would probably need more copies to show that it wasn't a one-off thing, and as I said, typographed stamps in any case are poor examples of precision. I don't yet have my piles of stuff organized to the point where I can find what I want, but I'll snoop through a recent purchase of a packet of 1200 different Danish stamps and see if there are any 7øre or 12øre wavy line stamps in there. They were only printed in type II, so they would be good candidates for a detailed look. Ryan edit: oops, 1200 dpi is too big!
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Post by spain1850 on Sept 10, 2013 17:52:06 GMT
Ryan, thank you for the clarifications. I could not make out the Facit illustrations either and your make it more clear. I'm still new at collecting Denmark and have a long way to go. Now, I will revisit my stash of 2ø's and see if I have any of the ones you show. I also have some 7ø and 20ø that I can check. Your clear illustrations will make it easier.
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Ryan
Member
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,719
What I collect: If I have a catalogue for it, I collect it. And I have many catalogues ....
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Post by Ryan on Sept 10, 2013 18:02:11 GMT
I also have some 7ø and 20ø that I can check. Note - that's 12øre you need to look for, not 20. Ryan
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Post by spain1850 on Sept 10, 2013 18:48:57 GMT
Got it, thanks.
I really need to get more sleep so I can pay better attention.
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Ryan
Member
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,719
What I collect: If I have a catalogue for it, I collect it. And I have many catalogues ....
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Post by Ryan on Sept 10, 2013 20:09:58 GMT
On a quick search, all I found was a 7øre apple green. Here's a 2400 dpi snip from it. Well, I suppose I can see the slight upward tilt to the upper arm of the "E", but I notice the shorter leg more than any tilt. I expect that apple green is a poor example because there isn't too much contrast with the colour of the paper, so I'll try fiddling with the image a bit.
edit: blast, where did my second image go ... try again The false colour image makes it easier to spot the tilt on the upper leg of the "E".
Ryan edit again: I should say, that amount of tilt on the letter is very minor - you need the horizontal line to be able to see it correctly, and just looking at the stamp under a magnifying glass isn't enough to make me really see any difference. There is a healthy difference in catalogue value, and fortunately it's a single value that is affected since only the 2øre with the correct watermark is affected. Still, it will take some time to try to sort out what you have if you have multiple copies.
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Post by spain1850 on Sept 18, 2013 5:27:06 GMT
OK, I think I found an actual type II of the 2ö. Ryan, what do you think? (type I above - straight top leg of E and rounded toe of 2, and type II below - top leg of E inclined slightly upwards and toe of 2 pointed)
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Ryan
Member
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,719
What I collect: If I have a catalogue for it, I collect it. And I have many catalogues ....
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Post by Ryan on Sept 18, 2013 6:03:15 GMT
(type I above - straight top leg of E and rounded toe of 2, and type II below - top leg of E inclined slightly upwards and toe of 2 pointed) I think you're correct. Note also that the top leg of the E is slightly shorter on the type II stamp. Good find! Ryan
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Post by spain1850 on Sept 18, 2013 6:32:01 GMT
Thanks for confirming. Now I need to figure out how I want to work it into the collection.
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Post by spain1850 on Sept 22, 2013 20:17:11 GMT
Things are looking up. I now have 2 copies of the type II. A used one and an unused one. (pics later)
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