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Post by adamgarfinkle on Jan 5, 2022 0:19:18 GMT
I know TSF has discussed Belgium fakes before, and even P1-40 have been mentioned. But that discussion did not suffice for my needs, so I would like to remobilize our collective intelligence on this, please.
Scott says there are lots of counterfeits but, typically, it gives no information on how to tell real from fake. The TSP discussion has concerned cancelled stamps as best I can tell: obviously, if upon inspection the cancellation is under the overprint.... But what about mint stamps? Can't be the perfs since the original parcel post stamps are not the issue. Must be the overprint--either the size and/or shape of the letters, the nature of the ink, or the overprint's placement on the stamp. Anybody have the answer, please? IS there an answer? Alas, I lack the reference library some of you own.
POST-DATUM: Thanks to the help of a friend, I have found the solution to the problem posed above: How to distinguish real from fake Belgium P1-40 that are mint, not cancelled. The answer is found in part I of a four-part series by Frank Aretz called Know Your Stamps, published by the Marks Stamp Company Limited of Toronto, Canada, in January 1941, pp. 7-8. These pamphlets are collected short essays that had appeared previously in the Emco Journal. Aretz, who was born in Belgium, probably wrote the note on P1-40 in or around 1933,when (as he explains) the fakes were first marketed. He died in 1936, so the collected notes published in 1941 represent a posthumous edition of his work. On the aforementioned page 8 Aretz took an illustration from a German source showing the differences in the letters between real and counterfeit. The illustration is vividly clear, particularly in the differences between the capital "J" and the "A" in the top word, and several other differences are clarified, as well. Happily for me, the stamps that necessitated finding the answer turned out to be genuine. I hope others are as fortunate.
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cjoprey
Member 
Scanning stamps for my website...
Posts: 1,443
What I collect: Belgium (predominantly), British Commonwealth (older ones), WW (whatever comes my way...)
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Post by cjoprey on Jan 5, 2022 9:24:32 GMT
Sadly, the COB doesn't say anything about forgeries of these stamps either (JO* series in there) - neither in my 1994 or 2022 catalogs.
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Admin
Administrator 
Posts: 2,642
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Post by Admin on Jan 7, 2022 16:24:50 GMT
In regard to his post-datum above, adamgarfinkle has asked me to post the below images.    |
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khj
Member
Posts: 1,460 
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Post by khj on Jan 7, 2022 22:20:10 GMT
Thanks for providing the resource.
Overprints are a tricky thing, because even among genuine overprints there will be variations among positions, printings, and also due to wear/damage. So if your overprint doesn't look exactly like the one at left, it doesn't mean it's not genuine. For example, I have some genuine 1928 overprints, and I can tell you that on many of them, the "RN" in "JOURNAUX" have a very clear gap at the base (i.e., they don't necessarily touch). The sharp long hook on the "J" is a fairly good indicator, but it's not unusual to be partially obscured by cancel. I'm guessing based on the publication date of the original journal, the overprint illustrations are likely hand-drawn reproductions.
The pics above were taken with a camera, not scanned, so disregard any tilts that you may see because the page is slightly curled. There is a very very slight rightward tilt of the "2" in genuine, but not as pronounced as it appears in the pic. However, I have also seen forgeries with this slight rightward tilt (I have seen leftward tilt, which I assume were forgeries). I don't consider the rightward tilt an accurate indicator, especially since the serif can play tricks on the eye.
There are definitely other forgeries other than the one shown at right.
The used overprinted stamps are fairly cheap. If you happen to have a large batch, it's pretty easy to quickly ID definite forged overprints -- the overprints are over the cancel. Having cancel over overprint does not mean genuine, as forged overprints with faked cancels also exist (a common characteristic of these is that they don't look or have they typical wear/tear of postally used stamps).
When you do a quick sort based on a pile very likely genuine (based on the long sharp hook on the "J") and a pile of definite forgeries (based on overprint on top of cancel), you will likely quickly notice:
-- inking on genuine is consistent in color and coverage
-- inking on forged overprints varies considerably (very thick letters, dark ink or almost grayish ink, letters not fully solid in inking...)
The problem is, without a full study of the different positions/printings, it's really hard to say all genuine overprints will look exactly like the one in the pic. This is not an unusual problem with many older overprints. Some of the more well-studied overprint issues will have detailed listings of known overprint flaws/variations, even knowing the original position on the pane. Fortunately, most forged overprints on older stamps are fairly crude or done with wrong typeface. When the forger does a very good job, that makes things difficult for the collector.
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khj
Member
Posts: 1,460
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Post by khj on Jan 7, 2022 22:35:41 GMT
To get a quick idea of what the forged overprints look like, check out the 7fr and higher denominations of the used 1928 overprints. Those overprints all catalog multiple dollars but the non-overprinted used stamps are minimum catalog value. You are more likely to find forged overprints among those.
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,265
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Jan 7, 2022 22:59:18 GMT
Well gents , the above could all be written in Greek to me.
An image would help , but what on earth is a P1-40?
I guess since I do not collect Belgium I am not familiar with this number , which catalogue is being referred to here ?
Do I have to guess it might be Scott ?
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Post by iswscwebmaster on Jan 7, 2022 23:14:31 GMT
Well gents , the above could all be written in Greek to me. An image would help , but what on earth is a P1-40? I guess since I do not collect Belgium I am not familiar with this number , which catalogue is being referred to here ? Do I have to guess it might be Scott ? , I was thinking the same thing so I looked in my Scott and P1-40 are the Belgian Newspaper Stamps which are overprinted Parcel Post stamps. |
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,265
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Jan 7, 2022 23:18:45 GMT
Thanks for confirming Alyn. iswscwebmaster . And so for those who don’t use Scott? That is why a picture is essential if we are all to get involved. There is a whole world out here. Us Europeans may use COB , Yvert, Michel, SG or something else . |
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stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,642
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Jan 8, 2022 0:01:46 GMT
I hadn't really paid much attention to this , aside from placing onto Varios- COB # JO1 -JO18 (10c - 20F). I'm guessing a few of these are forgeries after just a quick glance and mainly focusing on the "J" - the original seeming to have more of a "fish hook". Below is JO3, JO5, JO8 (a?), JO11 (2), JO13, JO14, JO15, JO16, JO17 & JO18  |
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Post by viking1234 on Dec 3, 2023 11:38:40 GMT
Sadly, the COB doesn't say anything about forgeries of these stamps either (JO* series in there) - neither in my 1994 or 2022 catalogs. actually COB do mentioned the forgeries, you might do the mistake that most Collectors do, they do not read the foreword and the about signs used. Under the Timbres Pours Journaux (Jo) ther is a little box after 18 v and then it says FS then you go to the front of the Catalog and and read FS = Il existe de fausses surcharges translatede into "there exist false overprints", to me COB inlighten you and tell you to be carefull, it do not show the Forgerie but every Belgium stamp thea is known to be a forgerie is mentionede in COB with either a F or FS. |
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phildug
**Member** 
Posts: 47
What I collect: Belgium, Greece, Belgian Congo, Ruanda Urundi and postal history of the two world war
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Post by phildug on Feb 5, 2024 8:56:17 GMT
I have the following one, it's a forgery. The overprint is above the cancellation.  |
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rod222
Member
Posts: 9,904
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Feb 6, 2024 3:55:50 GMT
I have the following one, it's a forgery. The overprint is above the cancellation. I am having trouble locating Braine-l'Alleud ? Can you assist? I have it as line 124 (Running North from Charleroi to Baulers. Does it go further North ?) Any maps / links to locate Braine-l'Alleud ? Oops ! I did have a previous query, and found location (but still no rail map) was in my stationery folder Can you explain "Facteur No1" please.   |
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salmantino
Member
Posts: 266
What I collect: Specialised UK and overprints, Ireland, Netherlands, Spanish permanent stamps.
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Post by salmantino on Feb 6, 2024 6:32:43 GMT
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rod222
Member
Posts: 9,904
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Feb 6, 2024 7:42:46 GMT
Brilliant! Thank you very much.  |
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