jimbo
**Member** 
Focused on mint stamps from Morocco. I have 98% of the Spanish, French, German and Moroccan Agency i
Posts: 11
What I collect: French, Spanish, German, British Agencies--all Moroccan
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Post by jimbo on Jan 17, 2022 20:32:41 GMT
I have been able to amass a pretty complete collection of Morocco local stamps and would like to correspond with others collecting these stamps with a view perhaps of exchanging duplicates and information
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Admin
Administrator 
Posts: 2,676
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Post by Admin on Jan 17, 2022 21:02:31 GMT
The best way to achieve that is to achieve full membership status and then post your trade offer in the BST category of the Forum.
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Post by greaden on Jan 17, 2022 21:13:31 GMT
Moroccan locals are fascinating, both the private services and the routes run by the Sultan. I have collected examples from all but the rarest routes, but am a long way from completion. I doubt I have any duplicates given the quirky postmarks and plateflaws.
There is a blurry line between locals and the offices of European powers: the offices supplemented local routes, but they also sometimes rivaled them.
As for information on them, have you seen any of the books on the topic?
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Londonbus1
Moderator 
Cinderella Stamp Club Member 3059
Posts: 5,075 
What I collect: Wonderland; 1912 Jubilee International Stamp Exhibition, London ('Ideal' Stamp, ephemera); French Cinderellas with an emphasis on Poster Stamps; Israel and Palestine Cinderellas ; Jewish National Fund Stamps, Labels and Tags; London 2010, A Festival of Stamps (anything); South Africa 1937 Coronation issue of KGVI, singles or bi-lingual pairs.
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Post by Londonbus1 on Jan 19, 2022 14:01:28 GMT
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Post by greaden on Jan 19, 2022 14:47:19 GMT
That is Jean Haik (1997), The Local and Private Posts of Morocco. I borrowed a copy from the APS library. It covers the stamps themselves including the plate flaws and forgeries.
More recent is Richard J. M. Garcia and Maurice Hadida (2019), Morocco: The History of the Local and Sherifien Posts. The authors' archival research solved a number of mysteries. The book describes each of the postal routes in their historical context. The sections on the Sherifien posts are especially important. The authors found old letters that explained the colors and shapes of the markings and corrected a number of misconceptions that have circulated in the literature.
The recent Yvert et Tellier catalog for the French Colonies incorporates their research, and Scott has now finally included the private posts in the last edition of its Classics catalog, but alas still omits the early Sherifien post.
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Post by greaden on Jan 20, 2022 3:26:21 GMT
I wonder if the Moroccan locals really counted as locals in the same sense as other local stamps around the world. Most locals are borderline cinderellas, are for a private post operating within a city, or between a private island and a mainland.
Moroccan locals, along with the services operated by the European consulates, would operate between certain cities, but collectively formed a rudimentary non-centralized national postal service. They are analogous to the private Thurn and Taxis mail service in nineteenth century Germany, or with Ethiopia before its 1908 entry into the UPU.
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jimbo
**Member**
Focused on mint stamps from Morocco. I have 98% of the Spanish, French, German and Moroccan Agency i
Posts: 11
What I collect: French, Spanish, German, British Agencies--all Moroccan
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Post by jimbo on Apr 27, 2022 14:33:27 GMT
I bought the 1997 Jean Haik book which is very comprehensive and helpful in detecting the several forgeries that are being offered, usually inadvertently, by collectors online. The book is now out of print but I’d be happy to offer to help anyone needing information it might have pertaining to their needs. I’ve just about completed the collection except for the Tetuán/she’s Juan and Alcazar-wax an series, which are scarce and rarely available for sale.
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Post by daniel on Apr 27, 2022 14:59:12 GMT
Hi jimbo, sounds interesting. Can you show us your collection? Thanks, Daniel |
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banknoteguy
Member 
Posts: 324
What I collect: 19th Century US, High denomination US (> $1), 19th century covers US, Indian Feudatory States and most recently I acquired a BigBlue [with about 5,000 stamps] and pristine pages.
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Post by banknoteguy on Jun 27, 2022 12:11:21 GMT
Would this be considered a Sherifian/Makhzan Post i.e. local post?
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Post by greaden on Jun 27, 2022 18:21:51 GMT
Would this be considered a Sherifian/Makhzan Post i.e. local post? Yes! It is from Mogador/Essaouira. The upper right mark, as is the seal, is upside down and reads Marrakesh, which I think is the destination. The address appears to be in Hebrew, which is unusual for this sort of cover. |
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banknoteguy
Member
Posts: 324
What I collect: 19th Century US, High denomination US (> $1), 19th century covers US, Indian Feudatory States and most recently I acquired a BigBlue [with about 5,000 stamps] and pristine pages.
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Post by banknoteguy on Jun 28, 2022 16:49:44 GMT
I have been told by another person on a different forum that the script address is in Tamazight. A Berber language of the Morocco region.
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banknoteguy
Member
Posts: 324
What I collect: 19th Century US, High denomination US (> $1), 19th century covers US, Indian Feudatory States and most recently I acquired a BigBlue [with about 5,000 stamps] and pristine pages.
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Post by banknoteguy on Jun 29, 2022 13:30:08 GMT
Can someone scan or post scans of some more examples of these local covers?
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Post by greaden on Jun 29, 2022 13:49:43 GMT
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Post by greaden on Jun 29, 2022 16:12:37 GMT
Can someone scan or post scans of some more examples of these local covers? From Fez to Tangiers:
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Post by greaden on Jun 29, 2022 16:17:16 GMT
From Casablanca:
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banknoteguy
Member
Posts: 324
What I collect: 19th Century US, High denomination US (> $1), 19th century covers US, Indian Feudatory States and most recently I acquired a BigBlue [with about 5,000 stamps] and pristine pages.
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Post by banknoteguy on Jun 29, 2022 17:11:29 GMT
Here is a table of these seals. Not sure if it is complete or not. It came from this link:
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Post by greaden on Jun 29, 2022 18:41:27 GMT
That is a complete listing of the seals for the 13 cities. Most mail used the octagonal marks. The round ones have been used for official mail, but I understand that much of that was really for tags on mailbags.
There were six colors: violet, black, red, blue, green, and orange. The colors were the ink types available. They do not have any particular meaning, but generally violet is the most common. Colors often faded, and orange tended to oxidize, so there are some indeterminate shades.
Smaller marks were made for 7 different routes as an earlier pilot project.
The cachets were used from 1892 until 1912. A few (at least Meknes) were used later as postmarks.
The most recent Yvert & Tellier catalog for French Colonies is the most up-to-date listing and valuation. It takes into account recent archival research published in Garcia and Hadida (2019), Morocco: The history of the Local and Sherifien Posts, 1891-1913.
A blue-marked cover from Mogador is listed at 400 euros.
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banknoteguy
Member
Posts: 324
What I collect: 19th Century US, High denomination US (> $1), 19th century covers US, Indian Feudatory States and most recently I acquired a BigBlue [with about 5,000 stamps] and pristine pages.
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Post by banknoteguy on Jun 30, 2022 2:31:53 GMT
Even though I am not an expert on this area or time period, I have started doing some reading and poking around and I think there may be some semantic issues in this thread.
I think there are three different posts [i.e. postal service including stamps and routes] in the same place (Morocco) at the same time (1892-1913). Two of them used actual adhesive stamps and one that we have seen examples of used hand stamps and ink pads.
The first is the Imperial posts -- French, British and Spanish. Each had stamps and post offices and routes. Well I am certain the Spanish and French had special stamps but I am not sure yet whether the British did also.
The second are local posts that were owned and run privately e.g., Marx and Co. et al. I think there were 20 or so routes.
The third is the Sherifian/Maghzen post setup up by the Sultan of Morocco by royal decree in 1892 that ran till merged with the French imperial post in 1913. This is the post that used the 13 different city seals with six colors of ink.
Jimbo started this thread by indicating he had a pretty complete collection of Morocco local stamps. I suspect [and hope he will confirm] that his collection was primarily of the 2nd type of post mentioned above. He could have all three but I doubt he would have named the thread "Morocco local" if that were true.
So I posted an image of a Sherifian cover (because at the moment it time, I thought it was a local item) and kind of hijacked this thread unintentionally.
I would like to hear from Jimbo and greaden on their take on this.
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Admin
Administrator
Posts: 2,676
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Post by Admin on Jun 30, 2022 13:05:00 GMT
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,917
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jun 30, 2022 13:29:07 GMT
Hi, Jack ( banknoteguy ). You wrote: I have no special expertise in this area, but I just checked the Scott Catalogue, and the British used stamps of Gibraltar overprinted "Morocco Agencies" starting in 1898 (QV issues). They later switched to overprinting GB issues of KEVII, KGV, KEVIII, KGVI, and QEII. You can find these under Great Britain Offices Abroad for Morocco. |
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Post by greaden on Jun 30, 2022 13:34:18 GMT
Even though I am not an expert on this area or time period, I have started doing some reading and poking around and I think there may be some semantic issues in this thread.
I think there are three different posts [i.e. postal service including stamps and routes] in the same place (Morocco) at the same time (1892-1913). Two of them used actual adhesive stamps and one that we have seen examples of used hand stamps and ink pads.
The first is the Imperial posts -- French, British and Spanish. Each had stamps and post offices and routes. Well I am certain the Spanish and French had special stamps but I am not sure yet whether the British did also.
The second are local posts that were owned and run privately e.g., Marx and Co. et al. I think there were 20 or so routes.
The third is the Sherifian/Maghzen post setup up by the Sultan of Morocco by royal decree in 1892 that ran till merged with the French imperial post in 1913. This is the post that used the 13 different city seals with six colors of ink.
Jimbo started this thread by indicating he had a pretty complete collection of Morocco local stamps. I suspect [and hope he will confirm] that his collection was primarily of the 2nd type of post mentioned above. He could have all three but I doubt he would have named the thread "Morocco local" if that were true.
So I posted an image of a Sherifian cover (because at the moment it time, I thought it was a local item) and kind of hijacked this thread unintentionally.
I would like to hear from Jimbo and greaden on their take on this.
All three of those kinds of posts competed with each other for routes between pairs of cities. There were few roads. Mail was carried by courriers on foot, known as rekkas.
The first are the Offices in Morocco of various European powers, run out of their consulates. France, Britain, Spain, and also Germany overprinted their stamps with postal rates in local currencies. These were used locally and also for sending mail to UPU countries. Tanger was the hub for these services, but there were posts mostly in coastal towns.
The second were the classic local routes. Generally, each was sponsored by one of the consulates. There were areas forbidden to Christians, so Jews ran many of the routes.
The third, the Sultan's service, was an attempt to obtain postal revenue in response to all those private services. Most of the routes covered went to or from the imperial cities of Fez and Meknes. It was a local service analogous to your second type, and relied on the infrastructure developed by the consulates and merchants.
In 1912, the markings were replaced by adhesive postage stamps. In 1913 the Cherifien post merged with the French Office to form the mail service for the Protectorate.
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bgh61
**Member**
Inactive
Posts: 5
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Post by bgh61 on Aug 19, 2023 21:17:30 GMT
Not sure how to post here - not seeing REPLY button on messages in a thread!! only at start and end...
I have been collecting local posts for 40 years and I have quite a large Morrocan locals collection.
I would love to post images but the image host requires password and my firefox browser is not saving the TSF password for some wierd reason!!
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hdm1950
Member
Posts: 1,901
What I collect: I collect world wide up to 1965 with several specialty albums added due to volume of material I have acquired. At this point I am focused on Canada and British America. I am always on the lookout for stamps and covers with postmarks from communities in Queens County, Nova Scotia. I do list various goods including stamps occasionally on eBay as hdm50
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Post by hdm1950 on Aug 19, 2023 21:27:07 GMT
Not sure how to post here - not seeing REPLY button on messages in a thread!! only at start and end... I have been collecting local posts for 40 years and I have quite a large Morrocan locals collection. I would love to post images but the image host requires password and my firefox browser is not saving the TSF password for some wierd reason!! The easiest way to post images, at least for me, is to hit REPLY and when the reply field opens you can enter what you want to say and then use the 'Add image to post' found in the upper right area rather than the 'Upload images' tab. That will open an option to then add images direct from your photo albums on your device. |
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banknoteguy
Member
Posts: 324
What I collect: 19th Century US, High denomination US (> $1), 19th century covers US, Indian Feudatory States and most recently I acquired a BigBlue [with about 5,000 stamps] and pristine pages.
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Post by banknoteguy on Aug 20, 2023 11:41:56 GMT
The Reply button is NOT in the message/post frame but outside -- see image below with arrow:
To add images there are two ways "Add image to post" or "Upload images". The first uses Imgbb and the second uses TSFimagehost. They both have pluses and minuses. Imgbb uses a separate server that can go down and six months ago it was having issues. Lately seems to be OK. It is somewhat easier to use as you don't need an id to use. TSFimagehost needs an ID/PW to use and periodically logs you out and you have to login again to use. So you have to remember your ID/PW. Still I use TSFimagehost always.
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millersville
**Member**
Posts: 35
What I collect: World-Wide Revenue
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Post by millersville on Nov 2, 2023 17:55:42 GMT
Another source of information is "The Alnis Guide to The Local Posts of Morocco".
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millersville
**Member**
Posts: 35
What I collect: World-Wide Revenue
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Post by millersville on Feb 16, 2024 6:07:44 GMT
I bought the 1997 Jean Haik book which is very comprehensive and helpful in detecting the several forgeries that are being offered, usually inadvertently, by collectors online. The book is now out of print but I’d be happy to offer to help anyone needing information it might have pertaining to their needs. I’ve just about completed the collection except for the Tetuán/she’s Juan and Alcazar-wax an series, which are scarce and rarely available for sale. , I'd like to accept your offer to assess the validity of the two Cherifien markings, Rabat and Tangier, shown below:   |
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Post by greaden on Feb 16, 2024 22:13:41 GMT
I can't speak for Jimbo, but I checked the Alnis guide and did not find any reference to forgeries of these stamps. I recently saw an auction listing that included a page of forgeries, and studied those. The letters were fatter and sloppier. Yours look very similar to those upstream in this thread and to mine. The colors look right.
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,917
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Feb 19, 2024 4:20:39 GMT
Thanks for your post, Chris ( millersville) I just checked, and TSF member ( jimbo) has not been logged in to the Forum for about 18 months, so it is unlikely that he will respond to your post. Not impossible, of course, but unlikely. I would suggest that you post some more of your Morocco local posts here in this thread, and let's see if we can get some other members engaged in helping to figure out what you have. Thanks again for your post! |
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rod222
Member
Posts: 11,104
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Feb 19, 2024 5:04:12 GMT
Chris ( millersville): I would suggest that you post some more of your Morocco local posts here in this thread, and let's see if we can get some other members engaged in helping to figure out what you have. Thanks again for your post! The Local Stamps of Morocco : A.L. Cords Local Postage Stamps of the World : Hurt-Williams La Poste Locale du Maroc : H Hofstetter La Poste Locale du Maroc : C Bonnafous Not a specialist, I have read elsewhere Octagonal for Post, and circular for Official Use (Requires confirmation)  |
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banknoteguy
Member
Posts: 324
What I collect: 19th Century US, High denomination US (> $1), 19th century covers US, Indian Feudatory States and most recently I acquired a BigBlue [with about 5,000 stamps] and pristine pages.
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Post by banknoteguy on Feb 19, 2024 15:36:19 GMT
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