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Post by flohmarkthoffi on Jun 12, 2022 21:30:08 GMT
Hello, i bought today some letters on a german Flea Market and one was sent in July, the 9th from London in 1799 to Langensalza, Germany, Saxe (Sachsen) and there is a rubber stamp on it i have never seen before. The rubber stamp is "FOREIGN OFFICE" with a "77" and a "99" below, i think the "99" is the year, but what means the "77"? The recipient is a entrepreneur (Name: Johannes Christoph Weiss) which viseted cotton factories in France and England in 1799 (Dates from Wikipedia) and opened one in Langensalza in 1803. Want informations, would be nice to get some. Thank you.   |
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ameis33
Member 
What's in a name? That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet
Posts: 505
What I collect: Poland and Italy Republic
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Post by ameis33 on Jun 12, 2022 22:02:01 GMT
I can't help you a lot, but there was a letter similar to your, to Switzerland instead to Germany, sold by Richard Frajola, November 2012 Net Price Sale of Postal History
Page 1 - Mail to Switzerland (Schaefer collection)
Lot 121
Great Britain, via Cuxhaven, to Switzerland, April 5, 1799 folded letter from London to Yverdon, red "Foreign Letter Office 99" postmark with "14" in center, sent via Yarmouth, Cuxhaven, to Hamburg and by the Thurn and Taxis to Basel, carried by Fischer Post from Basel to destination with "12 kreuzer due (Thurn & Taxis charge of 4 kr plus 8 Kreuzer for delivery to Yverdon), this route was necessitated by disruption of cross-Channel mails during the Napoleonic Wars, the only reported letter carried via this route to Switzerland |
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ameis33
Member
What's in a name? That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet
Posts: 505
What I collect: Poland and Italy Republic
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Post by ameis33 on Jun 12, 2022 22:08:06 GMT
I guess the 10Kr, corrected to 11Kr is the postage fee (to be paid by the receiver or paid by the sender?). On the back, the 4 (or 6?) could be the postage fee inside england?
As i told you and as i told in another post, to understand a prephilatelic letter, even more the earlier like in your case, require a deep knowledge (which i don't have)...
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Post by flohmarkthoffi on Jun 13, 2022 4:34:02 GMT
That is interesting, same year. Could be that the departments of the Foreign Office are numbered. Here 14 on the letter to Yverdon, Switzerland. I don`t know if the "6" at the back are the fees for England. Look now the letter from the auction.
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Post by daniel on Jun 15, 2022 3:24:41 GMT
Hello, i bought today some letters on a german Flea Market and one was sent in July, the 9th from London in 1799 to Langensalza, Germany, Saxe (Sachsen) and there is a rubber stamp on it i have never seen before. The rubber stamp is "FOREIGN OFFICE" with a "77" and a "99" below, i think the "99" is the year, but what means the "77"? The recipient is a entrepreneur (Name: Johannes Christoph Weiss) which viseted cotton factories in France and England in 1799 (Dates from Wikipedia) and opened one in Langensalza in 1803. Want informations, would be nice to get some. Thank you. Hi Mathias, I can offer up some explanation, some obfuscation and some speculation. Make of it what you will 😁 The Foreign Office mark depicted was of the type used from 1797-1799 in accordance with the Postage Act of 1796. The Act altered certain rates of postage in England. However, there was usually a day and month in the centre, 99 is certainly the year. The modern view suggests that there is no known explanation for just numbers in the middle. However, John G. Hendy wrote a book called "The History of the Early Postmarks of the British Isles: From their Introduction down to 1840'. In the preface to his second volume "The History of the Postmarks of the British Isles from 1840 to 1876", published in 1909 and available online here, Hendy updates some information for the first volume. In the Preface, in particular, he shows a similar Foreign Office mark (Fig. 10), see page 3 of the Preface, for 1805. Here he gives some detailed information for the numbers as follows: 'A register was kept in the Foreign Office of letters returned from abroad . These letters were numbered consecutively and entered in the register. The sender of the letter was informed that a letter bearing such a number would be given up upon payment of the Postage due upon it. Etc etc.' That is, the numbers on the hand stamp related to the numbers in the register. There is no reason to think that your letter was returned but, quite likely, the numbered hand stamp was used since it was more readily to hand. That's my theory. Daniel |
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,261
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Jun 15, 2022 15:11:57 GMT
I have to confess in all my collecting years these are the first two handstamps of this type I have seen .
Very interesting comment that they occur on returned letters .
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Post by flohmarkthoffi on Jun 15, 2022 18:42:34 GMT
Let`s take a resumee. The center number is consecutively signed in a register. I first thought it is a date, because my letter was sent to Saxonia on 09/07, and if it is a date it is the 07/07, and the second letter from Frajola auction was sent to Swiss on 05/04 and the date, if it is one, is 01/04. But it seems that it is only a registration number in the center, more possible. My english is very bad. I hope i understood the answers. If i am wrong correct it. Thank You.
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Post by flohmarkthoffi on Jun 15, 2022 18:52:55 GMT
By the way, i got some information from Wikipedia about Johann Christoph Weiss born 1779 in Langensalza, died 1850 in Laar. In 1799 he traveled through France and England to visit cotton factories. In 1802 or 1802 he opened a wool factory in Langensalza.
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Post by daniel on Jun 15, 2022 22:56:04 GMT
Let`s take a resumee. The center number is consecutively signed in a register. I first thought it is a date, because my letter was sent to Saxonia on 09/07, and if it is a date it is the 07/07, and the second letter from Frajola auction was sent to Swiss on 05/04 and the date, if it is one, is 01/04. But it seems that it is only a registration number in the center, more possible. My english is very bad. I hope i understood the answers. If i am wrong correct it. Thank You. This is what the dated Foreign Office marks look like for this period for outgoing mail. So, one in this format should have been applied to your cover. Since your cover is a commercial one, I doubt that it would have been returned. I am suggesting that the 77 Mark was wrongly used instead of the fully dated version. |
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Post by daniel on Jun 26, 2022 2:43:36 GMT
I found a much better reference for these Foreign Office marks and it contradicts my interpretation. From The Great Britain Philatelic Society at this link, you will find the London Postal History Group Notebook downloads. Scroll down to 2004 and click on issue 158 (Aug.) and the Foreign Office information can be found beginning on page 15. On page 16, it deals with Inward Letters to the Foreign office from Abroad. It is for this purpose that black fully dated handstamps were applied. The red handstamps, with numbers in the middle, were applied to Outward Letters from the Foreign Office from 1797. As previously stated, the meaning of the numbers, in this context, is unknown. Hendy's comments, that I mentioned above, regarding returned letters are likely to remain true since he was Curator of the Record Room at the General Post Office. Sorry for any confusion, Daniel |
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