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Post by historyphila on Jul 4, 2022 15:22:35 GMT
Dear friends, I am sharing scans of some recently acquired cross-border pre-philatelic covers, mainly between the old Italian states, Switzerland and France. The first two are correspondence between a "Jn. Simonde" (of Geneva, at least that's what the monogrammed letterhead says) and Charles Duprry/Dupny Burlatt of Geneva. 1) A folded letter from Florence, dated. February 8, 1858, with a two-line postmark of STADL(?) SARZANA, and a red Sardinian transit cancel (TS1, Deninger Type 122), a Torino datestamp of February 11, 1858 and finally a Geneva receipt of February 13, 1858 . There is a faint stamp (Florence?) dated 9 February 1858 lower left. The red chalk tax stamp appears to be 60 (centisimi?). ![]() Any further information on the postal route and on the taxation? And the partially-visible postmark on the bottom-left corner (enlarged scan attached) I'm also interested in the content - something with the inscription "SOUVENIR" and the names of some manufacturers on the reverse? I can read Tissot, about watches?   
Regards Sumit
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Post by historyphila on Jul 4, 2022 15:26:00 GMT
2) This letter also has a handwritten note inside stating Florence as the sender, as well as a Florence (Firenze) cds of June 1, 1860 and a Geneva arrival mark of June 4, 1860. But why is there no Sardinian transit stamp like on the earlier cover? I don't know the postal treaties between Sardinia (and other Italian states before reunification) and Switzerland, but were there any changes between 1858 and 1860? And does that explain the two tax stamps, 40 centisimi in red and 4 (decimes)? 
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Post by historyphila on Jul 4, 2022 15:29:01 GMT
The next is another folded letter from Fratelli G. & I. Becker (monogram letterhead) of Bologna to Jacob Josler (?) of Wohlen, Switzerland. The letter bears a double-circle postmark from Bologna dated December 21, 1849 and an arrival postmark - red double-circle - from Lucerne (?), on Christmas Eve 1849.  My question is (a) why is there no transit stamp from Austria or other countries, and which route could it have taken? (b) Is it correct to conclude that the quoted postal rate might be 14 cents (or would it be Kreuzer?) for the Austrian authorities and 4 decimes for the Swiss? (c) If the red postmark is indeed from Lucerne, why is there no arrival postmark for Wohlen? Again, please ignore all my ignorant mistakes!
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Post by historyphila on Jul 4, 2022 15:34:19 GMT
Finally two more letters from the Italian states to France. 1) From Turin, under Piedmont-Sardinia (two-line black postmark of August 19 (1846)) to Marseille, with indistinct arrival mark.   But no Sardinian transit stamp? Or is it because the letter was transported by sea? Would the postage be 8 centisimi? Doesn't the "4" in the top left have anything to do with it? 2) The second letter initially looked not as a cross-border transit item going from Chamberey to Marseille (both currently within France!). It has a two-line departure postmark from CHAMBEREY of August 17, 1844 and the arrival in Marseille on August 19, 1844, but why then the red double-circle France transit postmark? In 1844 Chamberey did NOT belong to France, but between 1815 and 1860 to the Grand Duchy of Savoy, i.e. to Sardinian territory. This explains the red inscription in France of Sard(aigne) in Le Pont-de-Beauvoisin. After that this traveled to Lyon (probably by road, since the TPO sign "Ambulant" or "A" is missing?) and then to Marseille, again by road. Am I correct here on the route? Any comments on the tax?  
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Post by historyphila on Jul 4, 2022 15:35:51 GMT
I had overlooked this one, which is also related. Originates from Milan (Jan 27, 1838), so with the Lombardy-Venetian Lingdom under Austrian control, and travels to Lyons, arrival datestamp Jan 31. The clear Sardinian transit mark (TS, Deninger type 122?) and the boxed-red Frabnce entry transit mark at Le Ponte de Beauvoisin (I don't have the van der Linden catalogue so can't specify when the Le Ponte Transit mark changed, as the earlier letter shows) is obvious. But what about any mark of crossing from the Austrian territory to Sardinia? My history knowledge here isn't of any consequence so might be missing something? Or the other ineligible red mark near the '11' (centisimi?) tax mark indicates anything?  Thanks again - looking forward to some expert inputs and suggestions here! Cheers, Sumit
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rex
Member
Posts: 1,010
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Post by rex on Jul 5, 2022 12:32:35 GMT
These prefilatelics are really beautiful, but from the point of view of their analysis, I would not know how to add anything else to what you wrote. Maybe Roberto ameis33, let's tag him and see if he can add more.
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 2,799
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Jul 5, 2022 13:09:31 GMT
Finally two more letters from the Italian states to France. 1) From Turin, under Piedmont-Sardinia (two-line black postmark of August 19 (1846)) to Marseille, with indistinct arrival mark.  . But no Sardinian transit stamp? Or is it because the letter was transported by sea? surely the red postmark reads.” Sardaigne Antibes” which is Sardinia / French frontier until 1860 when Nice became French ant the frontier moved to Menton You really have a series of challenges here Sumit historyphila …… I suspect however you may not get many answers as you probable are more knowledgeable in this field than the majority of TSF .
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ameis33
Member
What's in a name? That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet
Posts: 441
What I collect: Poland and Italy Republic
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Post by ameis33 on Jul 5, 2022 18:52:49 GMT
Originates from Milan (Jan 27, 1838), so with the Lombardy-Venetian Lingdom under Austrian control, and travels to Lyons, arrival datestamp Jan 31. The clear Sardinian transit mark (TS, Deninger type 122?) and the boxed-red Frabnce entry transit mark at Le Ponte de Beauvoisin (I don't have the van der Linden catalogue so can't specify when the Le Ponte Transit mark changed, as the earlier letter shows) is obvious. But what about any mark of crossing from the Austrian territory to Sardinia? My history knowledge here isn't of any consequence so might be missing something? Or the other ineligible red mark near the '11' (centisimi?) tax mark indicates anything? 
Google can be helpful to understand the route. The letter was mailed in Milan (LV), then crossed the border and reached Torino (Sardegna), where the TS (Transit Sarde) postmark was applied, then travelled to France throught Pont-de-Beauvoisin (entry point in France for letters coming from the Kingdom of Sardinia) and from there reached Lyon. The TS postmark should be related to the postal convention between France and the Kingdom of Sardinia, so for my understanding should be something related to the transit to France rather then the LV. Milan and Turin were two postal hubs, i believe letters to France were collected in Milan and then subsequently processed in Turin, so it doesn't seem to me "strange" that a transit postmark is missing (But that's my guess). The red mark close to the 11 seems to me more a LI, LJ or LT postmark. It believe it's an accessory mark, but i still haven't found any information concerning.
 About the ITALIE P LE PONT-DE BEAUVOISIN postmark, the NOEL catalog (me too i don't have the Van der Linden) tell me your if the most common, in red color, in use from 1836.
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ameis33
Member
What's in a name? That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet
Posts: 441
What I collect: Poland and Italy Republic
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Post by ameis33 on Jul 5, 2022 19:01:05 GMT
Finally two more letters from the Italian states to France. From Turin, under Piedmont-Sardinia (two-line black postmark of August 19 (1846)) to Marseille, with indistinct arrival mark.  But no Sardinian transit stamp? Or is it because the letter was transported by sea? Would the postage be 8 centisimi? Doesn't the "4" in the top left have anything to do with it?
This letter is similar to the previous one. No TS because the letter is not in transit, but originated in the KoS, just the entry postmark in France SARDAIGNE ANTIBES, in red used from 1842, still a common one. And most probably the arrival postmark (unreadable). The 4 in the left-top corner should be the weight and the 8 the rate.
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Post by historyphila on Jul 5, 2022 20:11:49 GMT
Thanks ameis33! Useful clarifications. I was erring on a fundamental principle for the application of transit marks: the marks for any territory were applied AFTER the letter has crossed/is entering into the territory, not when it is leaving! So TS mark is applied once the mail crossed from Austria into Sardinia, and the mark for France likewise, when it has entered France at P Beauvoisin! And thanks for clarifying the two different manuscript marks - coincidence that I just found somewhere else on the small top-left mark usually for the weight (and so more clear!) and the tax mark of a larger size. I will be soon having more questions for you as have already a small bunch, but of course, as a excited schoolboy would first try to interpret it from my little starting knowledge! Cheers, Sumit
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kasvik
Member
Posts: 450
What I collect: Cancels mostly, especially Sweden Gävle and Lidingö, Switzerland Geneva, Germany Pforzheim
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Post by kasvik on Jul 5, 2022 20:30:21 GMT
Finally two more letters from the Italian states to France. 1) From Turin, under Piedmont-Sardinia (two-line black postmark of August 19 (1846)) to Marseille, with indistinct arrival mark This one is a test. I like the collective effort. I think the 4 is ledger docketing, basically meaning the fourth letter into the sack. Before the Universal Postal Union simplified international rates, meaning pre-payment was impossible, letters had to be sent porto. Postmasters kept amazingly detailed records of each letter. That's how they claimed the money they were due back from post offices along the way. This would be resolved through a monthly or quarterly accounting.
The 8 is eight decimes (or 80 centimes) written by the Marseilles post office, due from the recipient, much of which eventually would be shared back to the originating and processing post offices. The rest of this toughie is beyond me.
The very nice looking 1860 Florence-Geneva letter shows a sharp Geneva red 40 centimes due stamp. Again, that's what Swiss Post assessed and collected. Most would be sent back to the originating and processing post offices. Rates had come down greatly by then with the wave of treaties. I wonder about your Turin-Geneva letter from 1858 charged 60 centimes in red crayon. That's a weirdy. Maybe that just shows how screwy rates could be back then.
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ameis33
Member
What's in a name? That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet
Posts: 441
What I collect: Poland and Italy Republic
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Post by ameis33 on Jul 5, 2022 21:08:21 GMT
Let's follow the first letter. The letter (with many other cousins) has been first collected in the Milan post office. Here, all the letters were marked with the MILANO postmark, sorted, divided by their destination and collected together in parcels, to be delivered, in this case to Turin. In 1838 there wasn't trains, so most probably the letter has been delivered by a coach. The coach has crossed the border, but there was not a specific office at the border, so the parcel with all the letters to France went directly to the Turin delivery office. In this office, the parcel with all the letters has been opened and the letters "worked", so marked (TS), resorted by their destination and delivered. The second delivery (i guess still by coach) was directed to France, to the office of Pont-de-Beauvoisin. In this case, unlike before, at the border there was a specific office arranged for this purpose "by postal convention", so by a specific agreement among France-Sardinia. In this office, the second parcel has been opened and again the letters "worked", so marked (ITALIE P LE PONT-DE BEAUVOISIN), sorted and dispatched. To regulate the accounting between the two postal administrations (French-Italian), the letters were counted, the dues calculated and recorded into a register. We can think as if the letters coming from Sardinia directed to France was "sold" to the french postal administration. So, when the postman finally delivered the letter and collected (hopefully) the related fee, the entire collected fees remained to the French post, which on the other side, paid the resulting from the accounting in the exchange offices to the italian posts. I hope i could have been clear... So, not all the time a letter crossed a border it was marked. A marking always refer to a "work" on the letter, either collecting, sorting, distributing, etc. So why the LI? LT? LJ? Where have they been applied and for which reason? Now it's your time to go on... BTW! I said the letter passed thorugh Turin... I guess that's what's happened and the TS mark was applied there, but again, i'm not so into ialian prephilately... You have to keep my description as a beginning for a better search... Have you tried to google "Prephilatelic (or prestanp) Milan Lyon"? You will find many letters like your...
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Post by historyphila on Jul 6, 2022 17:39:44 GMT
Let's follow the first letter. The letter (with many other cousins) has been first collected in the Milan post office. Here, all the letters were marked with the MILANO postmark, sorted, divided by their destination and collected together in parcels, to be delivered, in this case to Turin. In 1838 there wasn't trains, so most probably the letter has been delivered by a coach. The coach has crossed the border, but there was not a specific office at the border, so the parcel with all the letters to France went directly to the Turin delivery office. In this office, the parcel with all the letters has been opened and the letters "worked", so marked (TS), resorted by their destination and delivered. The second delivery (i guess still by coach) was directed to France, to the office of Pont-de-Beauvoisin. In this case, unlike before, at the border there was a specific office arranged for this purpose "by postal convention", so by a specific agreement among France-Sardinia. In this office, the second parcel has been opened and again the letters "worked", so marked (ITALIE P LE PONT-DE BEAUVOISIN), sorted and dispatched. To regulate the accounting between the two postal administrations (French-Italian), the letters were counted, the dues calculated and recorded into a register. We can think as if the letters coming from Sardinia directed to France was "sold" to the french postal administration. So, when the postman finally delivered the letter and collected (hopefully) the related fee, the entire collected fees remained to the French post, which on the other side, paid the resulting from the accounting in the exchange offices to the italian posts. I hope i could have been clear... So, not all the time a letter crossed a border it was marked. A marking always refer to a "work" on the letter, either collecting, sorting, distributing, etc. So why the LI? LT? LJ? Where have they been applied and for which reason? Now it's your time to go on... BTW! I said the letter passed thorugh Turin... I guess that's what's happened and the TS mark was applied there, but again, i'm not so into ialian prephilately... You have to keep my description as a beginning for a better search... Have you tried to google "Prephilatelic (or prestanp) Milan Lyon"? You will find many letters like your...
Thanks again, ameis33 - very useful and detailed leads here esp ""So, not all the time a letter crossed a border it was marked. A marking always refer to a "work" on the letter, either collecting, sorting, distributing, etc" - big clarification! I should most certainly have googled it - while I looked generally for the 'pre philately Italian states', I guess something more specific should surely have been good. I'll try out. I will be coming back soon with more queries for you and other experts here - this cross-border transit marks in general! Cheers, Sumit
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