rednaxela
Member 
Posts: 177 
What I collect: Germany in all its facets since 1871 (especially German Reich used including postal statinoneries, used), USSR, Austria, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, Denmark, France. I design all album pages for my collection myself and partly make them available to the general public for use.
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Post by rednaxela on May 18, 2023 16:04:44 GMT
In 1947 in Saarland under French administration new definitives were issued in Pfennig and Mark currency.
Since stamps in German currency could no longer be sold and used in Saarland since November 27, 1947, these definitive stamps were overprinted (or surcharged? The difference between overprint and surcharge is for me as a non-English native speaker very difficult to understand....) with values in centimes and francs. So far so good. However, the matter became more complicated: The remaining stocks of the first issue of these definitives in German currency that could be overprinted were too small to cover the actual demand. Therefore, until new stamps in franc currency were issued from May 1948, the said stamps in Mark currency were reprinted in a second edition in order to overprint them in French currency. However, this second edition differs from the first not only in terms of paper and gum, but also partly in design. As a result, the overprint series in French currency exists in two different forms: one on the first edition, the other on the second. In addition, although the stamps of the second edition were expressly produced for overprinting, at least some of them were also sold without overprint at post office counters. Therefore, one has to distinguish also two different series even for the stamps of this series without overprints. With value overprint in French currency, the second series is much more common than the first. For the stamps without value overprint, it is the first edition.
I am attaching four album pages summarizing the two printing series for both the stamps without overprint and the stamps with overprint. Some of the design differences between the two issues are also named. (I am currently revising the Saar album, which can be downloaded on The Stamp Web by Clive. This is a current workshop report, so to speak...).
Perhaps these notes will be helpful to some collectors. |
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stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,643
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on May 18, 2023 17:14:45 GMT
Below are all denominations I have of these (plus a few duplicates). There are two 12 pf as they appear to be different color, and two 40 pfenig which seem to be different paper types (white versus a tan/brownish paper). I can't really see much difference in the design (but then I'm not sure what to look for)  |
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rednaxela
Member
Posts: 177
What I collect: Germany in all its facets since 1871 (especially German Reich used including postal statinoneries, used), USSR, Austria, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, Denmark, France. I design all album pages for my collection myself and partly make them available to the general public for use.
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Post by rednaxela on May 18, 2023 18:31:05 GMT
Hallo stainlessb, Your stamps can be identified as follows:
First row: The crossbar of A's of all stamps is high. Thus all stamps belong to the first edition (8 Pf. was not part of the second edition at all). The Michel describes the color of the 12 Pf. as "schwarzgrauoliv (Töne)" (i.e. black gray olive with different shades, without any consequence for the catalogue value).
Second row: All crossbars are thin (and other details): all stamps are also from the first edition.
Third row: 30 Pf with high crossbar, i. e. first edition. All other were not printed in the second edition.
Fourth row: 10 Cent, 60 Cent. and 1 Fr: The crossbars are low, i. e. the basic stamps belong to the second edition. This is the case also for 3 Fr., as there the crossbar is thicker as it would be in the first edition. The crossbar of the 2 Fr. stamp is high. This stamp is the only example for an overprint on a stamp from the first edition. But this is a very common variety. Some years ago the Michel named a catalogue prize of 2 Euro (MNH)...
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Ryan
Member
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,721
What I collect: If I have a catalogue for it, I collect it. And I have many catalogues ....
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Post by Ryan on May 18, 2023 20:23:10 GMT
... these definitive stamps were overprinted (or surcharged? The difference between overprint and surcharge is for me as a non-English native speaker very difficult to understand....) An overprint can be for any number of different uses - perhaps a nation released stamps celebrating the World Cup of soccer / football and later released an overprint to commemorate the winner. Or maybe a new nation came into being and before they had their own stamps produced, they overprinted the new country name on some old stamps from the previous country. Or any number of other possible reasons for releasing a "new" stamp by printing some text over top of an old stamp. A surcharge is specifically a change to the face value denomination of the stamp. Sometimes a country runs out of stamps of a particular denomination, so they might take a bunch of surplus 50 cent stamps and overprint them with a new 10 cent face value. Or they might release a charity stamp to help pay the costs associated with a natural disaster - "+10c flood relief". Or perhaps the currency has changed, as is the case with your Saar stamps here. Ryan |
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rednaxela
Member
Posts: 177
What I collect: Germany in all its facets since 1871 (especially German Reich used including postal statinoneries, used), USSR, Austria, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, Denmark, France. I design all album pages for my collection myself and partly make them available to the general public for use.
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Post by rednaxela on May 19, 2023 15:11:32 GMT
... these definitive stamps were overprinted (or surcharged? The difference between overprint and surcharge is for me as a non-English native speaker very difficult to understand....) An overprint can be for any number of different uses - perhaps a nation released stamps celebrating the World Cup of soccer / football and later released an overprint to commemorate the winner. Or maybe a new nation came into being and before they had their own stamps produced, they overprinted the new country name on some old stamps from the previous country. Or any number of other possible reasons for releasing a "new" stamp by printing some text over top of an old stamp. A surcharge is specifically a change to the face value denomination of the stamp. Sometimes a country runs out of stamps of a particular denomination, so they might take a bunch of surplus 50 cent stamps and overprint them with a new 10 cent face value. Or they might release a charity stamp to help pay the costs associated with a natural disaster - "+10c flood relief". Or perhaps the currency has changed, as is the case with your Saar stamps here. Ryan Thank you very much, Ryan, for these clarifying words. Did I understand them correctly?: Whenever the face value or the selling price (including for example an additional amount for special purposes) of a stamp is changed by overprinting, it is a surcharge. This can iclude the change from one currency to another for use of a stamp in another country (without an overprint of the other country's name). All other "printings on stamps", such as another country name, change of useage of the stamp (e.g. conversion of a postage stamp into a official or postage due or air mail stamp), references to events etc. - all these are then actual overprints. I am surprised that even when the face value of the stamp is reduced, this is called a surcharge. The syllable "sur" in the word surcharge implies, at least to someone who is not a native English speaker, that the face value/selling price (the charge) after the overprint is higher than without the surcharge. (In the French language "surcharge" even stands for an overstrain or excessive demand...) But apart from that: What is the generic term for the cases where both the face value of the stamp is changed and at the same time e.g. another country name is printed or another text is added on the stamp? Taken by itself, the one is a surcharge, the other an overprint. But how are both named together? Is the specific issue overprinted or surcharged? Here, as an example, another stamp from Saar (Michel #52, Scott #67): The original German Stamp (Germania) was overprinted "Saargebiet" and with the coat of arms of this region for postale use there. Also the face value was changed. Is this now all in all an "overprinted" or a "surcharged" stamp?
That the whole matter of overprints and surcharges is truly not simple, I have learned from an article in Linn's Stamp News from 2002. As I have learned there: All surcharges are also overprints , while not all overprints are surcharges. Overprint thus is the general term with the surcharge as a special case.
But when I have a look into the Sott catalogs, all is called surcharged, where besides the surcharge itself also textual or other overprints are added (as in this case of a stamp from Saar). Here surcharge seems "to win" against overprint.
Somehow disturbing...
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Ryan
Member
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,721
What I collect: If I have a catalogue for it, I collect it. And I have many catalogues ....
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Post by Ryan on May 22, 2023 20:07:29 GMT
I am surprised that even when the face value of the stamp is reduced, this is called a surcharge. The syllable "sur" in the word surcharge implies, at least to someone who is not a native English speaker, that the face value/selling price (the charge) after the overprint is higher than without the surcharge. (In the French language "surcharge" even stands for an overstrain or excessive demand...)
But apart from that: What is the generic term for the cases where both the face value of the stamp is changed and at the same time e.g. another country name is printed or another text is added on the stamp? Taken by itself, the one is a surcharge, the other an overprint. But how are both named together? Is the specific issue overprinted or surcharged? Note that the "sur-" prefix can also mean "above" or "over top of". This would be the usage for "surcharge"; it has been printed over top of the existing face value. I would guess that to be exact, your example would be an "overprint with a surcharge". "Overprint" will be the generic term for the majority of collectors for such stamps, I expect. For me, anyway, the new country name is far more important than the new face value. Ryan |
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Post by paul1 on May 22, 2023 20:45:34 GMT
It does seem a contradiction of terms to use the word surcharge when we are speaking of a decrease in something, so I understand rednaxela's confusion. Another word with the 'sur' prefix is surfeit, and this has just the simple meaning of an excess of something. The problem is that I don't think there has been an appropriate word - used on stamps - to correctly mean a reduction in value/cost - there is the occasional situation of massive inflation, where stamps are overprinted with a very large increase value - the obvious example was Germany in the 1920s. Unfortunately for us, when defining the word OVERPRINT, SG write .......... "Where the additional inscription changes the face value of the stamp, this is termed a surcharge" - I too would like to see the word overprint used when the value decreases and suspect that other country names added to the stamp also come under the heading of overprint.
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stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,643
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Oct 14, 2023 18:29:44 GMT
I am not sure if this is the correct place for this. While taking a break from sorting France, I started organizing stamps I won from a recent giveaway fro REL1948 The stamp below is one I previously had, but I noticed it was where it likely did not belong. St. Wendel is in Saar, ( which is really my only reason for posting here and I know it is 27-28 years pre-mature). The Deutsches Reich has been overprinted with a bar, but I do not see a surcharge... I do not have anything else like it? Where does it belong?  |
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hrdoktorx
Member
Posts: 6,616
What I collect: France (and French territories), Africa, Canada, USA, Germany, Guatemala, stamps about science, flags, maps, stamps on stamps...
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Post by hrdoktorx on Oct 15, 2023 6:46:36 GMT
This is Saarland MiNr. 7, first printing. The overprint is nearly completely occulted by the cancellation, but you can still distinguish the capital S of "Sarre" unser the St. of St. Wendel from the cancellation.
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Post by gstamps on Oct 15, 2023 9:14:37 GMT
stainlessb, I think I looked for 10 minutes to see the "Sarre" overprint - I didn't succeed. The bar ink is deep black and the Sarre overprint should be clearly visible. I did not find the overprint mistake in Michel (Only the bar, without Sarre) - there is only Sarre, without the bar. I think the stamp should be kept.
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rod222
Member
Posts: 9,913
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Oct 15, 2023 9:48:25 GMT
Quote but you can still distinguish the capital S of "Sarre" unser the St. of St. Wendel from the cancellation. Agree, the letters Saare thicken the arc of the "bridge" in the image PS: I find it extraordinary, your "St Wendel" Postmark, has vertical ribs in the top Bridge In my entire collection I only have a similar design in a "Saarbrucken 3" cancelling hammer all the rest are void of bars in the arc space.  |
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salentin
Member
collecting Germany,where I live and about 20 more countries,half of them in Asia east of the Indus
Posts: 5,631
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Post by salentin on Oct 15, 2023 12:08:52 GMT
The stamp was valid for postage till Aug.15th,1920 (15.8.20) and againFrom Sept.1st till Sept.15th 1920.
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stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,643
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Oct 15, 2023 14:25:29 GMT
thank you all for your commentI.
Yes I can now make it out, the "S" is the easiest, and the top loop of the 'a" touchng the the base of the "T" in ST. WENDEL
and if I am reading the date correctly, it is Aug 17, 1920 (so 3rd day it was valid
I will have to look at some others as I thing I have other stamps with vertical bars below the upper inside arc ("bridge" fits the description nicely)
Stan
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salentin
Member
collecting Germany,where I live and about 20 more countries,half of them in Asia east of the Indus
Posts: 5,631
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Post by salentin on Oct 15, 2023 16:05:48 GMT
No,Stan it was no loner valid on the 17th ! From that you can be sure for 99 %,that it is a cancel-forgery.
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stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,643
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Oct 15, 2023 22:03:27 GMT
ah ah! another forgery!
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rod222
Member
Posts: 9,913
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Oct 15, 2023 23:50:55 GMT
SURCHARGE
ASK PHIL CONTRIBUTIONS (Collector's club of Chicago)
Surch.: abbreviation for surcharge, overprint.
Surcharge:
1: an overprint which changes the denomination of a stamp either up or down.
2: Universal Postal Union language is additional fee.
3: used on Britain and British Colonies issues may mean postage due.
4: can change a regular definitive stamp into a semi-postal stamp, or regular issue to an air mail issue.
5: zuschlag (Ger.).
Surcharge Postage: Grenada, Trinidad and Tobago, postage dues.
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