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Post by NordicTraveler on Nov 29, 2023 5:32:58 GMT
Is there something I'm not seeing that is obviously wrong here? Or could these be unknown/rare experimental coils from 1939/40? Both have perf 14 3/4 and have wm "SE", but they don't exist, do they? It is only Scott No. 107 that has perf 14 3/4 as I have found out and they are not in coil. And they have wm "E" If my 2 stamps had perf 15 then they would have been scott no 87 I would think.. And coils from 1940 surely have perf 14? I can't get this to work, have measured perf time and time again.
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Nov 29, 2023 7:20:11 GMT
Is there something I'm not seeing that is obviously wrong here? Opinion only. Indeed Ne'er do wells, have been busy with scissors, and cut normal stamps to appear coils. Quite common, I have a few in my collection. Here is my mutilated, with a genuine coil in centre Genuine appears to have 14 teeth and straight borders either side (Hmm your catalogue image (genuine) appears to have 15 teeth)
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Nov 29, 2023 7:50:02 GMT
Regarding the 2p Coil above
"The Rare Coil" CV : about $13,000 Scott # 68b
Discussion with the late (and great) J.T.Carrigan (United States) (about 2005) (all links will be voided)
The stamp in question (Scott 68b) is a coil. Here's my copy <http://www.jaypex.com/Ireland/coil.jpg>.
The Yahoo 'eirestamps' group has scans of 15 more in their Photos section, but you have to be a member to view them.
Here's a very informative post by Tony Cassidy regarding this stamp, known to Irish collectors as the "rare coil":
Hi everyone This is a quick reply - there are no simple replies on this subject. Some years ago Richard Luettiken of the FAI (basically the German Society for Irish Philately) started a survey on the Rare 2 pence coil in used form. This was printed in Die Harfe (The Harp) the quarterly journal of the FAI. As I had developed a major interest in this stamp since finding it in a bag of 1930s kiloware (cost of bag 3 pounds stirling = 6 US Dollars at today's rate - but that is another story!!) I made contact with Richard and together we attempted to get somewhere near the number of genuine used copies. Some members of this group may remember me requesting details of copies from members of the EPA, IPC & FAI groups. What was important was that I was recording photographic proof (photocopies) Suffice to say that we started about 8-10 years ago with the then generally held premise of there being approx 50, maybe 60 used copies. Some 4 or 5 years down the line we stopped, partly because the project was getting too big and partly because we had reached a figure of photographically-proofed individual copies that far, far, far exceeded the previously assumed total. My / our fear was that we might dramatically collapse the market for this particular stamp if our figures were released. For this reason I shelved the project (many thanks to all who contributed) However last summer I was in the company of a major Irish philatelic auctioneer in Dublin and his words were basically "You must go ahead with this. Don't worry about the market price. Don't forget that it is the ultimate aim of almost every collector of Irish stamps to have this in his collection. There are a lot more than 1000 serious collectors around the world. The market will sort itself out. It will still be a valuable and very valued stamp." Since then personal and family time & health constraints have meant no return to the project. Hopefully, next Autumn. Until then my copy together most of my notes have been securely locked away off-site, so I am sorry to say - no correspondence. However if any members of this group would care to send details with photographic proof via this group,or direct on avcassennis@... I promise to file them away securely and incorporate them when I re-start the exercise. I will supply previous history of that stamp if known. Answering the current questions: Are there known mint copies: Yes, probably at least 40 (that will shock a few!!!) Are there multiples (1): Yes strip of 4 or 5 mint no gum is probably the biggest Are there multiples (2): Yes 2 or 3 copies of used pairs Any on cover (1): Yes the first example was sent to the mother of a young Michael Leonard who went on to be President of the IPC - Irish Philatelic Circle. Unfortunately Michael cut the stamp and slogan cancel off the envelope so that it would fit the space on his album page!! Any on cover (2): Yes, about 15 or 20 years ago, Ian Whyte, since retired from stamp dealing and auctioneering but then with David MacDonnell the leading figure in Dublin, showed me a copy on cover that had been found in the back of a collection that had, I believe, been sent for valuation and sale. It was quickly sold privately - but to whom? So how many copies of the Rare 2 pence coil in used condition are there?. I won't say, but there is a good clue in my notes above . Be prepared to be shocked. !! Finally, if the Rare 2 pence coil in used condition is more common than thought, is there a rarer Irish stamp in used condition - rare overprints and specialised (missing colour, inverted watermark, etc) excepted. YES and the clue has also been given in the correspondence just before mine.
Best regards Tony Jay Carrigan see web site for email address <www.jaypex.com>
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philatelia
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Captain Jack - my best kiloware find ever!
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What I collect: Ireland, Japan, Scandy, USA, Venezuela, Vatican, Bermuda, Austria
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Post by philatelia on Nov 29, 2023 8:53:41 GMT
rod222, I agree with you - they look scissored.
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Post by NordicTraveler on Nov 29, 2023 9:03:37 GMT
Thank you for the additional feedback.
It's probably right what you say Rod222, that someone has used the scissors, jeez, then it's a bad job.
I interpreted it to mean that no one would try to fake with such a bad job...and then thought that they were "real" coils with crooked edges.
But since this one has perf 14 3/4, it must be scott no 107.
Then there is a new problem, is scott nr107 previously known with "SE" vm??
The only variant for No. 107 is No 112aw. It has invert wm "E"
Is then conclusion, this is scott no 107 with wm "SE" which is not listed??
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Nov 29, 2023 9:35:17 GMT
Quote : But since this one has perf 14 3/4, it must be scott no 107.
How so? Both Sc# 66 and Sc #107 are perf 15x14 If it has Wmk 44 then it must be Sc#66
.and then thought that they were "real" coils with crooked edges.
When one is conversant with the separation method It is highly unlikely, if not impossible to produce such wonky line
Forgers, in the main, have pea sized intellects, usually the better forgers are made aware of in catalogues by the phrase "Dangerous counterfeits exist" I consider it is incumbent for any collector, to have a healthy scepticism in Philately esp. when investing in the more valuable items. I have many examples like this..........
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Post by michael on Nov 29, 2023 9:48:01 GMT
I can't help you with your stamp but I would suggest that if you have something that you think is rare you should really be consulting a Stanley Gibbons, Scott or a specialised catalogue rather than using Colnect.
For example the second stamp in you opening post, Colnect says it has a stated perf of 14¾.
This is SG 112 and Scott 107 which both catalogues (SG 2023 edition and Scott 2009 edition) have them as perf 15 x 14 not 14¾ as per Colnect.
A quick check of a SG 112 reveals the vertical and horizontal perfs are different so Colnect is wrong.
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salentin
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collecting Germany,where I live and about 20 more countries,half of them in Asia east of the Indus
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Post by salentin on Nov 29, 2023 13:29:25 GMT
I would not bet on it,that the coils,shown by Nordic Travelever are scissor-produced forgeries. The selvages are quite wide.It would be difficult to find all-around perforated stamps with wide enough selvages. However imperforated (proofs ?) exist.
As far as the perforation is concerned,I think the introduction into the Michel-cat. is quite telling: "pay attention to the fact,that even the best perforation-gauge,especially with expensive perforation-variants, can never supplement an examination by a recognized expert" (analogous translation)
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Post by NordicTraveler on Nov 29, 2023 17:06:15 GMT
I am of course completely open to the fact that I may have assessed this completely wrongly. I guess that's why I'm asking for input? Because I'm unsure and would like to hear other people's opinions. And if you don't have the catalogue, you have to ask others on forums or use websites. But it's even worse if Colnect also has errors in its data...unexpectedly, since Colnect is surely to be considered a "good" reliable source?
so, Rod222, if Colnect is wrong then that explains my confusion? :-) regardless of whether these are cut or not, perf 14 3/4 and wm "SE" are the hard facts for me. Will look up sc#66 as you say ;-)
Salentin, I too was surprised that there could be such wide margins AFTER clipping. How wide are they with tags? But seeing that they are horribly crooked and have small cuts etc. I have no high expectations that this is anything valuable. I do this because I think it's damn fun to find some stamps that seem out of the "normal" and enjoy the childish excitement of what it may and may not be. And I have little, almost no experience at Eire. I spend most of my time on US-Frank/Wash and Norway (my homeland)
Rod222, most of the time I follow this method: look for what confirms that it is NOT what you think/look for/hope for. Then you will find the important indicators faster ;-)
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Post by NordicTraveler on Nov 29, 2023 17:07:11 GMT
Michael, i sent mail to Gibson. Im a member. No answer Salentine. Agree with you, a good perforation gauge can never be compared to experienced eyes. An alternative is to invest in a Sherlock. But like the physical ones anyway. The steel gauge from Philatek is a good one as I see it.
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philatelia
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Captain Jack - my best kiloware find ever!
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What I collect: Ireland, Japan, Scandy, USA, Venezuela, Vatican, Bermuda, Austria
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Post by philatelia on Nov 29, 2023 17:23:56 GMT
Colnect is a wiki, meaning that the data is entered by many volunteers which is very different from how a catalog is edited and published. There are over a million Stamp listings from a multitude of catalogs. That is a massive amount of data to compile! Colnect also relies on input from users to help spot errors or missing information.
I currently am in the process of adding the Hibernian catalog data to Colnect and volunteered to help edit Ireland. If you are a colnect member you can submit suggestions regarding errors or missing data yourself by using the “Help Improve our Catalog” box. You are also welcome to send me a message here or on Colnect.
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Post by NordicTraveler on Nov 29, 2023 17:49:39 GMT
philatelia, thanks :-) Rod222 look at this picture. This is a genuine one. Look at the edges? they are as ugly as mine... I think you're right, but you also get a little unsure when you see that these stamps can actually look "cut".
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philatelia
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Captain Jack - my best kiloware find ever!
Posts: 3,416
What I collect: Ireland, Japan, Scandy, USA, Venezuela, Vatican, Bermuda, Austria
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Post by philatelia on Nov 29, 2023 18:43:21 GMT
I think the key thing to see is if the edges are perfectly parallel. Sheesh I wrote perpendicular- MUST HAVE COFFFFFEEEEEE
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djcmh
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Post by djcmh on Nov 29, 2023 20:04:26 GMT
Regarding the perf on MI 72A in Colnect from a look at the editing history is appears another contributor sent an improve catalogue request saying that the perf was 14.75 with an image showing the perf slighty closer to 14.75 than 15, and an editor accepted it, though they really should not have since all of the big 4 and Hibernian say 15, but the image did suggest perf closer to 14.75
I've reverted the listing back to 15, but this shows that a 0.25 degree of difference can be difficult to resolve in cases where, for example, a perf is slighty over 14.75 but not quite 15 - do you round up or down. The big problem comes when catalogues disagree with one saying 14.75 while another says 15. In the end Colnect used the catalogue most authoritative for the specific country and earlier this year we introduced a rule that if comment comes up questioning a data point it must be confirmed by an editor with access to the catalogue of record for that country, as we were having editor wars over perf differences of 0.25 between different catalogues.
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Post by michael on Nov 29, 2023 20:22:32 GMT
Thanks for doing that djcmh but the stamp is 15 x 14 not 15. The horizontal perfs are clearly different to the vertical perfs. The stamp from Colnect with the horizontal perfs turned 90 degrees and compared with the vertical perfs shows this.
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Nov 29, 2023 20:38:04 GMT
Quote I think you're right, but you also get a little unsure when you see that these stamps can actually look "cut".
Indeed The only difference between a flower and a weed,...is judgement
I have been posting in forums for so long, I expect some people to take an "Opinion" as gospel. Catalogues bringing perf guaging to the nearest half is common. Perf guaging is not a science, it was never meant to be Engineers / toolmakers drilling holes in blocks of mild steel, and inserting pins, could not give a toss about stamp collectors.
You will meet collectors often, who widely believe they have a "discovery" or a rarity no matter what opinions are offered.
The cool, mature, route, is to take on opinions offered, make your judgement and if it differs, then just make steps towards getting a professional certificate. I'ts not that expensive
Then that is now your "bragging rights" to confirm (or deny) your stance.
In 30 years on forums, I have witnessed this twice ! and what a revelation! you just had to feel elation at the news.
Most often, you never hear again from these believed new discoveries.
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djcmh
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Post by djcmh on Nov 29, 2023 20:38:33 GMT
michael my mistake I have corrected this now it is 15x14 got confused with the discussion of the coil Interesting to note though that the OPs image in first post does suggest the perf is closer to 14.75 than 15. This shows another issue - most catalogue publishers did not start measuring perforations to the nearest quarter until the postwar era. Generally you find few quarter perfs in classic era stamps. Most perf gauges from the classic era only had 0.5 gradients, so when newer, more precise gauges began to be made later, catalogue publishers generally did not go back and remeasure perforations to update their data. So while the catalogues all say 15 horizontal on this sheet stsmp, higher detailed perf gauges indeed may show perfs closer to perf 14.75. Environmental factors can also affect measuring perfs. But bottom line, coils of this stamp are perf 14, sheet stamps are perf 15, and anything looking like a coil with a perf closer to 15 than 14 is a fake coil stamp
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Post by NordicTraveler on Nov 29, 2023 21:28:15 GMT
Rod222
I'm sorry if I came across as rude or annoyed you. I claim nothing. I don't think I have made any discovery. I myself learn by "sparring" on a topic, what about that, what if it's like that, etc., etc
Brings other ideas or input so that I can clarify things, ask about new things, try new angles, I just try to be curious and learn by asking. If you interpreted this picture as defiant and that I don't believe your info, sorry
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Nov 29, 2023 22:23:53 GMT
Rod222 I'm sorry if I came across as rude or annoyed you. I claim nothing. I don't think I have made any discovery. I myself learn by "sparring" on a topic, what about that, what if it's like that, etc., etc Brings other ideas or input so that I can clarify things, ask about new things, try new angles, I just try to be curious and learn by asking. If you interpreted this picture as defiant and that I don't believe your info, sorry Yikes! absolutely not Nordic Traveller I understood your route. All's good I was actually responding to the ether, you will come across this regularly, esp with US varieties. I was responding, to encourage the application of certificates. Any responder to help assistance, will face this sometimes touchy margin, between dogma and opinion. Oft it is easier to not help at all, but both lose that way. Spar away !
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Nov 29, 2023 23:17:36 GMT
NordicTraveler
Ireland : The 1d Carmine Rose Map Stamp
Designed by Mr James Ingram, of Glasnevin, Dublin, and issued February 23rd 1923
The stamp remained in use for over 45 years
Here, is arguably the full collection of the stamp in all its forms.
Source: The Revealer July 1979 Author John J Blessingham
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Post by NordicTraveler on Nov 30, 2023 11:11:15 GMT
Today I received a reply from Stanley Gibbons.
the "problem" had been forwarded to some experts for further assessment.
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