philatelia
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Post by philatelia on Feb 28, 2024 14:39:01 GMT
Google translate gives me “phase prints” as the translation for “Phasendrucke” from my Michel Austria Specialized. Are those the black print sheets? Would calling those “proofs” be correct or is there a different English language term for those? Thank you for the translation assistance.  Sheets from a recent auction purchase. Is the bottom sheet a Phasendrucke?  |
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Post by PostmasterGS on Feb 28, 2024 15:51:03 GMT
No idea about this item in particular, but in the German areas, a phase printing is typically an item that only went through a portion of the printing phase. So it will usually be missing some portion of the printing, be it a certain color, embossing, etc. I'm seen them referred to in English as progressive proofs. Phase printings are particularly common in certain German occupation areas where the phase printings were assembled into presentation books for certain high officials, leading to many of them being in the collectors market. I wouldn't classify the black printing as a phase printing since it looks to be a complete printing, just not in the proper colors. Maybe some sort of proof? EDIT: An example of Phasendrucken from this site, which has several Austrian examples.  |
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Londonbus1
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What I collect: Cinderellas and some Ephemera from Great Britain, France and Israel plus a few beautiful bits from elsewhere !! Topical interests include Flags & Judaica, the latter with an emphasis on the Jewish National Fund.
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Post by Londonbus1 on Feb 28, 2024 16:56:10 GMT
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salmantino
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What I collect: Specialised UK and overprints, Ireland, Netherlands, Spanish permanent stamps.
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Post by salmantino on Feb 28, 2024 17:26:59 GMT
A 'Phasendruck' is a type of 'Andruck': in this case, a trial run of the printing press for multi-colour stamps in phases to check the proper functioning of the press.
Definition from Bund Philatelistischer Prüfer e.v. (BPP):
"Andrucke sind Drucke, die meist auf unterschiedlichen Papieren vor Beginn des eigentlichen Markendrucks hergestellt werden, um die Druckmaschine nebst Farbwerken auf ihre ordentliche Funktion und die Druckform auf Sauberkeit usw. zu überprüfen. Hierzu gehören auch Phasendrucke beim Mehrfarbendruck."
It is a type of proof (test or control print would be closer to the mark) and it is not a blackprint. The miniature sheet in black/grey posted is not a Phasendruck.
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rednaxela
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What I collect: Germany in all its facets since 1871 (especially German Reich used including postal statinoneries, used), USSR, Austria, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, Denmark, France. I design all album pages for my collection myself and partly make them available to the general public for use.
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Post by rednaxela on Feb 28, 2024 18:15:43 GMT
Google translate gives me “phase prints” as the translation for “Phasendrucke” from my Michel Austria Specialized. Are those the black print sheets? Would calling those “proofs” be correct or is there a different English language term for those? Thank you for the translation assistance. Sheets from a recent auction purchase. Is the bottom sheet a Phasendrucke? For some countries – not only Austria – such official black prints (without any postage value) are an incentive for collectors to buy year books (including them) from the postal authority. Your example is such a black print of souvenir sheet # 12 (Michel) from 1996. At ebay.at it is actually offered for 16.50 Euro. |
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rednaxela
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What I collect: Germany in all its facets since 1871 (especially German Reich used including postal statinoneries, used), USSR, Austria, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, Denmark, France. I design all album pages for my collection myself and partly make them available to the general public for use.
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Post by rednaxela on Feb 28, 2024 18:29:04 GMT
Between 1979 and 1981, the Austrian Post issued three phases of stamp printing (here the intaglio printing plates), each as separate stamps. The occasion was the stamp exhibition WIPA 1981 in Vienna. |
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Feb 28, 2024 22:13:53 GMT
Not listed in "Askphil" For the record Cherrystone Auctions 2002   |
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salmantino
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What I collect: Specialised UK and overprints, Ireland, Netherlands, Spanish permanent stamps.
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Post by salmantino on Feb 29, 2024 7:14:21 GMT
'Phil' probably has not bothered to check the official definitions of Germany's Bund Philatelistischer Prüfer e.v.. Although it is not Austrian, it is unlikely Austrian definitions will deviate. If you want to understand German certificates these definitions are very helpful. www.bpp.de/wissen/philatelistische-begriffsbestimmung/Trust the Germans to institutionalise the language used on certificates. |
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rednaxela
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Posts: 177
What I collect: Germany in all its facets since 1871 (especially German Reich used including postal statinoneries, used), USSR, Austria, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, Denmark, France. I design all album pages for my collection myself and partly make them available to the general public for use.
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Post by rednaxela on Feb 29, 2024 12:20:10 GMT
For the financing of the establishment of the Paris Postal Museum, at the end of 1966, a non-valid-for-postage special print on cardboard paper was sold by the French Post for 5 Francs. This special print, only delivered upon request, depicts the creation process of the Michel #1552 / Scott # 1150 stamp in three printing stages.  |
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rednaxela
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Posts: 177
What I collect: Germany in all its facets since 1871 (especially German Reich used including postal statinoneries, used), USSR, Austria, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, Denmark, France. I design all album pages for my collection myself and partly make them available to the general public for use.
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Post by rednaxela on Feb 29, 2024 13:10:07 GMT
These are not examples of phase prints, but rather evidence that even waste, in the form of unfinished or unperforated stamps, has entered the market (and evidently finds its buyers). |
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Post by daniel on Feb 29, 2024 14:38:55 GMT
Google translate gives me “phase prints” as the translation for “Phasendrucke” from my Michel Austria Specialized. Are those the black print sheets? Would calling those “proofs” be correct or is there a different English language term for those? Thank you for the translation assistance. For some countries – not only Austria – such official black prints (without any postage value) are an incentive for collectors to buy year books (including them) from the postal authority. Your example is such a black print of souvenir sheet # 12 (Michel) from 1996. At ebay.at it is actually offered for 16.50 Euro. Hi Alexander, how does your explanation of the word Phasendrucke relate to this Aero-Club balloon stamp? Thanks, Daniel |
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philatelia
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Captain Jack - my best kiloware find ever!
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What I collect: Ireland, Japan, Scandy, USA, Venezuela, Vatican, Bermuda, Austria
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Post by philatelia on Feb 29, 2024 15:25:47 GMT
daniel - I used that stamp at random to grab a quick screenshot of the term “phasendruck” in the Austria Specialized catalog. I don’t think anyone’s response had anything to do with that particular balloon issue.
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Post by daniel on Feb 29, 2024 15:49:24 GMT
Sure Terri, philatelia, but I'm still unclear as to what the word means exactly. Multiple, apparently different, answers have been given. At least that is how it appears to me  Daniel |
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philatelia
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Captain Jack - my best kiloware find ever!
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What I collect: Ireland, Japan, Scandy, USA, Venezuela, Vatican, Bermuda, Austria
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Post by philatelia on Feb 29, 2024 16:23:19 GMT
Clear as mud, eh? Lol.
My interpretation so far from what folks have written is this; the plain black sheet is something different - a black print?
The Phasendrucke are sets of impressions showing each phase of the printing process. The more colors, the more images in the set. I’m not sure about black only stamps - I suppose that would be pointless because there would only be one “phase”.
The black print or whatever they are called seem to be more common and inexpensive and are gifts for loyal customers or some sales gimmick like that.
I have no clue how the Phasendrucke were marketed. Maybe similar to proofs, but I’m not clear on how those reach the market either.
Okay - am I on the right track here?
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salmantino
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What I collect: Specialised UK and overprints, Ireland, Netherlands, Spanish permanent stamps.
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Post by salmantino on Feb 29, 2024 16:40:25 GMT
Clear as mud, eh? Lol. My interpretation so far from what folks have written is this; the plain black sheet is something different - a black print? The Phasendrucke are sets of impressions showing each phase of the printing process. The more colors, the more images in the set. I’m not sure about black only stamps - I suppose that would be pointless because there would only be one “phase”. The black print or whatever they are called seem to be more common and inexpensive and are gifts for loyal customers or some sales gimmick like that. I have no clue how the Phasendrucke were marketed. Maybe similar to proofs, but I’m not clear on how those reach the market either. Okay - am I on the right track here? Yes. If it would be a monocoloured stamp printed from a single plate or cylinder, it would just be an 'Andruck' as there are no phases. If it is a black stamp printed from multiple cylinders or plates - e.g. a frame printed in lithography and a vignette in intaglio -, there, still, could be Phasendrucke. edit: Even if the stamp was printed from a single colour plate or cylinder, there could be Phasendrucke: look at one of the Hong Kong miniature sheets that shows phases including a fluorescent print that is not visible by the naked eye.A black print is a collectors print and many postal authorities sell these, or, indeed, include them in year books or gifts to loyal customers. Considering the Phasendrucke were used by the printers to check the stamps would come out as intended, a likely source for such items would be an archive sale. |
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rednaxela
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Posts: 177
What I collect: Germany in all its facets since 1871 (especially German Reich used including postal statinoneries, used), USSR, Austria, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, Denmark, France. I design all album pages for my collection myself and partly make them available to the general public for use.
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Post by rednaxela on Feb 29, 2024 18:00:55 GMT
For some countries – not only Austria – such official black prints (without any postage value) are an incentive for collectors to buy year books (including them) from the postal authority. Your example is such a black print of souvenir sheet # 12 (Michel) from 1996. At ebay.at it is actually offered for 16.50 Euro. Hi Alexander, how does your explanation of the word Phasendrucke relate to this Aero-Club balloon stamp? Thanks, Daniel Hi Daniel,
unfortunately, I cannot add anything substantial regarding the reasons why, in the case of this Austrian stamp Michel #2346, recently [there was no indication of this in the 2022 Michel!], phase prints are now being referred to and evaluated... According to the definitions of the BDPh, phase prints, especially in prints of different colors [and probably also in different printing techniques], are respective trial prints in the printing process, individually or in sequence of the required printing stages. They are "supposedly" destroyed afterwards, but some have also made their way out of the printing house, sometimes legally within the context of philatelic exhibitions. However, not all of them have found their way back to the printing house's waste bin... To my knowledge, such phase prints are only examined in the entirety of all printing stages to distinguish their property as actual trial prints from mere waste, where one or more printing passes for whatever reason did not function. However, this does not change the fact that even renowned auction houses offer stamps or souvenir sheets with unusual printing passes as "phase prints." |
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rednaxela
Member
Posts: 177
What I collect: Germany in all its facets since 1871 (especially German Reich used including postal statinoneries, used), USSR, Austria, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, Denmark, France. I design all album pages for my collection myself and partly make them available to the general public for use.
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Post by rednaxela on Feb 29, 2024 18:22:17 GMT
Here is an example of the confusion regarding phase prints versus waste: On one hand, this auction listing (from 2019) points out missing printing passes in the production process, which suggests waste, but then labels the entire thing as a phase print...
 Translation: "Naba souvenir sheet 34 imperforate with failed printing of the 15 and 20 Rp., as well as without margin inscription, color-fresh and in flawless mint condition, without any signatures. A very rare phase print from the production process. Only a few copies have survived! Attest copy Rellstab.
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rednaxela
Member
Posts: 177
What I collect: Germany in all its facets since 1871 (especially German Reich used including postal statinoneries, used), USSR, Austria, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, Denmark, France. I design all album pages for my collection myself and partly make them available to the general public for use.
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Post by rednaxela on Feb 29, 2024 19:05:47 GMT
I have continued searching a bit more on the internet and indeed found examinable and then also certified phase prints of an Austrian stamp: As mentioned in a previous post, phase prints can ultimately only be identified and certified as such, and distinguished from waste, based on the complete set of all individual printing runs. In this case, it was, accoring to the certificate, a print with a total of 8 printing runs of the stamp Michel # 1662 from 1978. (If we're being precise, it was a print in just five stages: the three colors one after the other, then the frame and the intaglio plate...)
  Perhaps there are also such complete sets of phase prints available for the balloon stamp from Austria. |
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Feb 29, 2024 21:14:49 GMT
Personally, I like PostmasterGS' suggestion "Progressive proofs"
Is there an argument against adopting this term, as an equivalent?
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Post by daniel on Feb 29, 2024 21:32:31 GMT
Personally, I like PostmasterGS' suggestion "Progressive proofs" Is there an argument against adopting this term, as an equivalent? I agree, in English we call them progressive proofs. Thanks for all of the replies. Daniel |
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Post by gstamps on Feb 29, 2024 21:44:56 GMT
I searched in Michel and noticed that starting with 1967, most of the German Democratic stamp series mention and value these Phasendrucke. Their existence cannot be an accident but a legal(?) activity determined by the interest of collectors. I assume that multi-color stamps were first printed with 1 color, then 2 colors, then 3 colors, etc. and then they were cut and sold as a series of Phasendrucke. I found an example with a stamp with a simpler design (1967, Mi#333):  yelow, yelow+red, yelow+red+green, yelow+red+green+black, and finaly the stamp with perforation. Edit: adjusting the alignment of the clichés is done gradually, starting with the addition of one color, 2 colors, 3 colors ... until the last color. If everything is OK, the stamp printing starts. |
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salmantino
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What I collect: Specialised UK and overprints, Ireland, Netherlands, Spanish permanent stamps.
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Post by salmantino on Feb 29, 2024 21:47:31 GMT
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Feb 29, 2024 22:36:12 GMT
Usually printed in Black ink ? Then I respectfully disagree with Linn's (or Linn's author) These I have as "Progressive proofs" and would be hard pressed to consider otherwise Argentina  Mongolia  US TB Charity (Not mine)  |
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JeffS
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Post by JeffS on Mar 1, 2024 0:51:56 GMT
I believe the discussion involves 2 distinct types of proofs 1. die or plate proofs as the dies and plates are being prepared 2. printing proofs in intended color (s) such as press proofs to verify plate registration immediately prior to starting the press run. likely other variations exist but fore tre sake of simplicity I offer just these two. |
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Post by daniel on Mar 1, 2024 0:56:15 GMT
Progressive Proof is a standard printing term, also used in the art print world. From PrintWiki: A set of color proofs produced on-press using the four color separation negatives exposed to separate plates and printed in printing sequence using the process inks intended for the pressrun. A set of progressive proofs (commonly known as progs) is likely to include the following: the yellow plate alone; the magenta plate alone; a combination of yellow and magenta; cyan alone; yellow, magenta, and cyan in combination; black alone; and all four colors in combination, or the full-color image. Progressive proofs are a preferred way of checking the color separation negatives, and are also used—by referencing them to press sheets—to maintain press control during the press run From Merriam-Webster: a proof of a set made from plates for color printing showing each color separately and then the colors combined with one color being added at a time in the order in which they are to print See here for an explanation from a graphic designer and Cinderella stamp producer. A search on eBay comes up with 740 stamp examples. Here are stamps with a label in between marked Progressive  Scan_20210320 (3) by Daniel, on Flickr Daniel |
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